How can this be happening?

[BAMSS04]

Look,
I may not seem like it, but I am really, REALLY a passive person. I have respect for everyone's opinion, and I EXCPECT the same in return.

College campuses have been called too liberal many times before this.

They have been accused of only teaching from a liberal point of view. I always defended colleges saying that it was good to have your opions challenged and your mind pushed. I never realized the problem until tonight.

My first three weeks of classes have gone GREAT. I mean my Economics , and my Cultural Anthropology classes have not once brought politics into the matter except to state the Facts about what each party believes. Not once. That is saying a lot see as how politics is a huge part of economics. HUUUGE. Now, when I say I honestly was never looking for anyone to try to SHOVE the liberal agenda in my face, but I expected their to be some talk in these classes about President Bush. Nope. It was great I have been learning objectively. How it is supposed to be.

Now, my Oral Communications class was tonight, and it WAS one of my favorites. Guess what happened?

question by Student: " Does the State of the Union count as a media critique for TV or a live event?

answer: " As a TV critique unless you were there in person."


That really was all that was needed to be said , right?

Student: " Ok thanks."

Professor:" What did you think of the speech?"

Student: " Well, I liked some of it, I thought he made some great points. His speaking has gotten better that's for sure. He does not stumble on words as much, and he is much less preachy."

Professor: " Yeah he has gotten better. However, Bush makes me sick and I don't understand why anyone would vote for that man. He is a puppet. Not a man. He makes me sick to my stomach and so do all republicans."

He continues for half of my four hour class, to just tear into Bush, and republicans in general.

Myself and the lady who asked the question are the only republicans in the class. The other 27 students basically spend the whole class ripping our political beliefs and ideals a part. I mean this was not a discussion, this was an ambush.( No pun intended) I , being well read and well spoken, faired much better than she did, she left the class almost in tears.


I left the class as well, after things got heated between myself and the Professor. When walking out of the class completely railed this man for about 30 seconds.

So much so that he had no response.

I called him a horrible teacher, and horrible role model, and said he had no business teaching at any school much less at a University. I said :To teach a subject that, first they hold not mastery of, and second that is not a part of the course in general, and thirdly failing to take an open and contained look at the issue is just plain wrong. I understand that the way things are right now people are emotional, and it has caused a lot of bitterness and hatred. For him to do to that poor girl what he did, is ridiculous. The title of that course is oral communication; he needs to learn more about it.


Has it come to this , really. Have we all become that different that we would needlessly deduce a women to tears just for thinking that Bush is doing the best he can with what he has been handed as a President( her words). Are we that angry at each other that we gang up on people with no intention of debating facts, merely to belittle and humiliate them. In my life time I have never seen done to someone what was done to me and this women tonight. In my life time I have never treated a democrat that way. EVVVVVVVVEEEEERRRR. I still never will. I have never even heard of a republican doing this to a democrat ( not that it has never happened). I have just finished talking to several people on another board about this matter, and it seems to become more and more common.

I am not trying to make democrats look bad( I swear) , but I am calling a spade a spade. I have been noticing this a lot lately. And it hurts. BAD. I never thought that I would have to endure it, because I don't seek those kinds of situations.

The other thing that bothers me is the disrespect for President Bush. Calling him stupid, a murderer, a baby killer, a retard, saying he should be shot, and many other things. This is unfathomable for me. If you want to debate the mans ideals, say that you disagree, and explain why. Great. However, to stand in an American classroom and call the leader of the free world those things is just wrong. As much as I disliked Clinton's politics and personal choices I always respected his position. ALWAYS.

The professor called me to apologize, and he said he called her as well. He said that he just got a little to emotional and never should have done what he did.

I told him that I forgive him, but that he has to apologize to that girl in person. Also, that he needed to make the class apologize to her.

I told him that the same was not needed for me, because I said before; not a lot of people can go toe to toe with me in an argument and some out unscathed. The only reason I walked away is because it was starting to get nasty, people were standing feet away from me SCREAMING that I am stupid but not backing up with anything other than that. I can only take so much.


He says he will.....We'll see.

Even if he does I still will never be able to repect him as a teacher ever again.




(There are probably a lot of grammar and spelling errors in that thing, but I am too angry to sit here any longer and proof it. I am shaking at this point)

[JamesW]

Regardless of political viewpoint, what that professor did was very irresponsible. Oral communication I would think of as basically a science, opinions on actual politics shouldn't enter into it. Perhaps opinions on actual speeches and the presentation of their content, but not the content itself. You pay (a lot of money)to go to a university, somebody else (somebody whose salary YOU pay) should not be shoving their viewpoint down your throat as part of the curriculum. Give em hell, man.

[JaimePaulFalcon]

You need to accept the fact that most people in your classes will not agree with your viewpoints. It is a common thing for a class to turn on one or two students because they believe in something totally different or they are not willing to go forth with thoughts of their own. I once had a philosophy class where I was the only freshman major in and we got into a discussion over if people where inherently good or evil and many people in the class went with the belief that both MLK and Gandhi where both people that where inherently good, well of course I being the smartass 18 yr old brought up MLK's womanizing and Gandhi’s wife beating only to have a class of 25 people turn on me. The point is people rarely if ever change their beliefs this early on in life because in all actuality mob rules they will follow the pack especially seeing how the professor was leading the attack. And well it sucks that there is little independent thought in our schools hell I go to one of the top schools in the country and most of the students here blindly follow their friends and parents rhetoric when it comes to this country. By the way I am very liberal and would probably disagree with your thoughts on these issues, but I do agree with you that a class that you are paying for is no place for this sort of topic. That is unless it is clearly stated beforehand that a group debate would be held.

[slizzelizzel]

As liberal and as 'democratic' I claim to be, saying that another person's beliefs are stupid is the stupidest thing someone can do. I don't give a fuck what people believe, they have the right to do so, but when it comes to bashing other's for what they believe to be right, I hate it.


I'm also drunk, if I didn't make any sense.

[JamesW]

I'm also drunk, if I didn't make any sense.


Most coherent drunk post...ever.

[BAMSS04]

You need to accept the fact that most people in your classes will not agree with your viewpoints. It is a common thing for a class to turn on one or two students because they believe in something totally different or they are not willing to go forth with thoughts of their own. I once had a philosophy class where I was the only freshman major in and we got into a discussion over if people where inherently good or evil and many people in the class went with the belief that both MLK and Gandhi where both people that where inherently good, well of course I being the smartass 18 yr old brought up MLK's womanizing and Gandhi’s wife beating only to have a class of 25 people turn on me. The point is people rarely if ever change their beliefs this early on in life because in all actuality mob rules they will follow the pack especially seeing how the professor was leading the attack. And well it sucks that there is little independent thought in our schools hell I go to one of the top schools in the country and most of the students here blindly follow their friends and parents rhetoric when it comes to this country. By the way I am very liberal and would probably disagree with your thoughts on these issues, but I do agree with you that a class that you are paying for is no place for this sort of topic. That is unless it is clearly stated beforehand that a group debate would be held.


It could not be more clear that you did not read a word that I typed. I do respect other peoples opinions and beliefs. I ALWAYS have, and will continue to do so.

Our two stories are NOTHING a like. Number one, you where debating philosophy in a philosophy class. I was having to defend my political views in a class about speech writing.

The Professor, to his own admission, started this mayhem not me and not this girl. She was not looking for a political argument when she asked her question.


You on the other hand, must have been looking to debate your point because it was you who decided to speak up. It was you who entered the argument. Did the professor TRY to shame you into believing his opinions? Did he and the rest of the class get in your face and call you stupid and scream at you? If they did then do you honestly think that this was right? If so why?

I love to debate things, hell, I live for it. Debating ideas is a part of being a college student. This was not a debate. This was a fight, and one I did not pick. A debate should have structure, a debate should have clearly thought out ideas and not political propaganda, and a debate should be fun even if you lose. I debate things with people on this very site all the time. JJ, Robbo, RB, Zens, and the rest of us get into over various topics all the time. However, I respect them enough not to resort to calling them names, treating them like idiots, or shame them into believing what I believe. I have respect for their ideals.


Maybe what you should say is that, my professor, those other students, and other people (regardless of political affiliation) need to "accept the fact that most people do not agree with their viewpoints."

[slizzelizzel]

Goddamn, I'm in Ohio and felt the heat from that one...

[Psyche]

cat fight! rwar


no wait it's two guys would that be a dog fight?

[JamesW]

cat fight! rwar


no wait it's two guys would that be a dog fight?

Wouldn't it just be a..... fight?

[JaimePaulFalcon]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa look I was in no way disagreeing with you, I was trying to state that I understand what it is like to have a group turn on you. I’m sorry for not having clearly stated that I agree with your thoughts that the situation was wrong. In no way was I trying to come at you and disagree with and say they where in the right. And no my professor did not disagree with me but he did nothing to stop the students from coming after me but not once did I approach him about it personally I enjoy it when people come after me it makes me feel more even more alive. Hell look at robbo and rb they attack almost everything I say and it does not faze me in the least its fun actually.

Yes I did read what you wrote did you read all of what I wrote I was agreeing with you not trying to say you where being whiney or any of that. I clearly stated that what they did was wrong it had no place in that class. And maybe you right with the idea of me switching my statement around a bit. All I am saying is; well who knows what the hell I'm saying, I never know really. Anyway and no offense but you obviously have the ability to back up your ideals without shouting or running out of a class crying fantastic good for you but as for those who cry or shout during an argument they have no business in higher education emotions have no place in the world of academia. Again I agree with you although from a slightly skewed point of view.

[JaimePaulFalcon]

Wouldn't it just be a..... fight?
I don't see this as fight just two differnt views. Again just to clear up what I was trying to say you are not the one who threw others ideas to the wind but they are the ones who did so.

[JamesW]

I don't see this as fight just to differnt views.


Hush you! Don't interrupt me while I'm stirrin' shit boy!

[JaimePaulFalcon]

God I love this site, my ex-roommate runs a site for North Texas evenets and every argument ends with them calling me gay. At the very least here i get tore a new asshole through creativity.

[slizzelizzel]

You're so gay...

[JaimePaulFalcon]

You're just angry because the longhorns walked into the 'shoe and rode your buckeye hard.

[BAMSS04]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa look I was in no way disagreeing with you, I was trying to state that I understand what it is like to have a group turn on you. I’m sorry for not having clearly stated that I agree with your thoughts that the situation was wrong. In no way was I trying to come at you and disagree with and say they where in the right. And no my professor did not disagree with me but he did nothing to stop the students from coming after me but not once did I approach him about it personally I enjoy it when people come after me it makes me feel more even more alive. Hell look at robbo and rb they attack almost everything I say and it does not faze me in the least its fun actually.

Yes I did read what you wrote did you read all of what I wrote I was agreeing with you not trying to say you where being whiney or any of that. I clearly stated that what they did was wrong it had no place in that class. And maybe you right with the idea of me switching my statement around a bit. All I am saying is; well who knows what the hell I'm saying, I never know really. Anyway and no offense but you obviously have the ability to back up your ideals without shouting or running out of a class crying fantastic good for you but as for those who cry or shout during an argument they have no business in higher education emotions have no place in the world of academia. Again I agree with you although from a slightly skewed point of view.


I read everything that you typed, twice. In fact, I deleted some of my other statements because of this.

I apologize for jumping you like that. I thought you were implying that I was the one who needs to accept their views, not the other way around. That, in a debate class, that kind of treatment is ok. I am happy to be wrong.

I am quite angy right now as you can see. So, some of those statements rubbed me the wrong way. It does not excuse my not trying to clarify you're statements before jumping on you. Again, I apologize.

I know that you have an idea what it is like to be treated like that, but still I think even most "liberal" people I know would not treat someone the way they treated us. It was shocking. I admit freely that it hurt me. I am glad to know that you are not as affected by this as I am , but again I think even you would have walked out of that classroom the way things were going.

If I didn't leave, there would have been a fist fight. That is how tense this situation was people. I had people literally get up and get near my face to SCREAM at me.

[JaimePaulFalcon]

Not a problem at all. What happend to you was wrong and makes me kinda want to reconsider my Nashville/Memphis move.

[BAMSS04]

Memphis is great, during may. That's about it. Other than that it sucks. Beale is fun for tourists, but for the rest of us it just makes traffic downtown a pain in the ass.

Ask robbo about Nashville. I have not been their more than a few times.

What school do you attend now?

[JaimePaulFalcon]

I'm at Rice by way of North Texas and well there was the Stanford incident. Honestly I'm tired of school I've been in and out since I started and I have no idea hwat to do with myself. As you can tell this is one of my few sober moments i.e. the better spelling grammer and punc. So thats been mainly running my life.

[Aaron]

I know this kind of politcial debate can really rub people up the wrong way
(although like you say, it didnt seem like a debate, more an ambush)
I personally dont like to get into convorsation at all involving religion, politics etc
But I must say, its kind of refreshing to see that its such an issue in America
Over here, the Irish government etc is rarely discussed
People just seem less interested about it

[marksiwel]

Ireland has a goverment? What do they even do, what are the hard hitting issues in Ireland right now? Whiskey or Beer? The Debate Rages on! heh just messing with you.
Seriously I just lump Ireland and Scotland into "England Area" Its just a big green blob on the map in my head. Kinda like Central American, there is Mexico and then Panama and alot of orange and yellow inbetween.

[By-tor]

You're just angry because the longhorns walked into the 'shoe and rode your buckeye hard.Ohh, hell, get 'em boy!! That is a sweet comeback. And ohh so true. The Buckeyes gotta be hating anything burnt orange after the last 2 years.

[Razorback]

I had a very militant liberal teaching one of my history classes... being in New Jersey, 90% of the class was ignorant militant liberals. The professor screamed at us for hours about how evil America was and how terrorists were nothing but freedom fighters. Yet he was always protective of his students. He would allow for an exchange of different ideas and he would dictate to us what he thought was the right answer but he would never allow for someone to shit on someone else for their opinion.

However, when I wrote my papers, or when I answered essay questions on exams, I ALWAYS wrote using his point of view. I simply reasoned that a good lawyer knows how to take up the position of his client no matter any feelings to the contrary.

I completed that class with an A+.

[Gotherella]

It doesn't matter which "side" you're on or even how old you are. My girls have gotten yelled at at school by other kids and told "You HAVE to believe in God." They're always asking me how they should handle it when the subject of religion comes up because they're embarrassed to have a different viewpoint than most of their classmates and afraid they're going to be ostracized or even physically attacked.

What that professor did to you should get him fired, in my opinion. Seems many folks in this country have become zealots for one viewpoint or another. What the fuck happened to open-minded, rational debate? "I'm right and you're wrong because I said so" has no place in an open and free society.

I've been trying to figure out how we got here -- have people have just gotten lazy and want someone to tell them what to think? Or is it like when the kids fight - one bugs the other one, who bugs back, who slaps, and all of a sudden it's a scrum. "She started it!" "No, she started it!"

I don't give a rat's ass who started it, just knock it the hell off. Now.

[FanGirl]

Before I start my points, I would just like you know that I am either a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal. I don't really fit into either part as I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty or as my friends say the "death for everyone" party.

The price you pay for a free society is that people are allowed to say whatever they want including how much they hate having a free society. In terms of people's rights the analogy of a person seinging their fists at another always works for me. You rights end at their nose. It seems like this guy clipped a few noses by being so righteous. I agree with Goth to look into school policy to see if there is any kind of disciplinary action to this professor. In the immortal words of Bart Simpson, "Damn hippies. We need another Vietnam to thin their ranks."

Next you mention about respecting the position of President. *puts on Cliff Clavin voice* Now you see historically the office of the president and the government itself really wasn't questioned. It may have been on individual levels or maybe small groups, but the media even when it was just a small paper never really pushed any buttons. And then came the JFK assassination and suddenly a whole lot more people began to question as a lone gunman story from the government just couldn't be digested. So Americans began to look more carefully at it's government and media started taking on more of a role to expose things that were questionable like the Vietnam War. The office of the President came into question when Watergate happened. Suddenly, Ma and Pa Kettle realized that the President was not infallible. The media once again taking the reigns and leading up to a point where everyone questions everything and no poistion or person is held without criticism (except Oprah, but that's another story).

And the about the girls and religion. I was so there when I was there age. I was in a Catholic school and being a person that believes in a higher deity, but said deity doesn't need my money or worship form me to live on this planet happily, you can imagine what I went through. I remember in 6th grade starting the dsicussion of if you could chose any religion what would it be. No one understood my question. They explained they wanted to be Catholic. I didn't understand their response and they ratted me out to the teacher and I had to defend myself and got put in the corner for being a smart ass. I simply said that the church was confusing. They asked me to give an example so I said, "Jesus is God's only son, but we're all his sons and daughters. So how can he be an only child when he's our brother." I learned to just suck it up and pretend to be a drone only raising my difference of opinion when it needed to be raised.

In conclusion, "America Fuck YEA."

[Razorback]

I think the simple answer to how we have gotten to this point is that there was a time when conservatism was the wide majority point of view. Liberals had to make as much noise as possible to get noticed. Eventually the liberals moved a good chunk of the previously conservative away from their side.

Somewhere along the line the liberals began to outwardly mock the conservatives for what they saw as being a backwards thinking ideology. Eventually it became the norm for liberals to express their bigotry openly on TV, radio, and even in social situations. This fired up the conservatives and they began to utilize the tactics that had been used against them.

So, now we have two sides using the same dirty tactics to mock the other. That means that if you end up in a heavily liberal area and you express conservative ideology, your opponents will feel empowered by their support base (the majority) and attack you for it. The same goes for liberals in conservative areas.

Unfortunately, there are very few real moderates/independents. Most people do have a horse in the race, even if they say they do not. It is less about actual ideology and more about the two sides. You either stand with the democrats or the republicans. Most people who do stand with one or the other do so not because of the totality of their respective points of view but usually because of one specific difference.

Will this ever change? Probably. However, for the next ten years or so, it will only get worse. It may even destroy the nation. The only thing I am certain of is that even if it becomes obvious that our biases are literally killing the country, the two sides will only fight harder to "prove" that they are "right."

[BAMSS04]

Allow me to explain what I mean by respect.


You can criticize and still show respect.

You can dislike and still show respect.

You can HATE and still show respect.


I am not saying you should have to like the President. You do not have to like him to be respectful of is position as OUR Commander and Chief.

" You respect the rank, not the man."

- Major Richard Winters ( Band of Brothers)


That sums it up for me. Now when you get at home and in private you can be as disrespectful as you like. In a classroom, and in a public place ( I feel ) respect is to be shown.


This is about the most ridiculous thing I have seen from a liberal. This is an American Company.



http://vn.kominet.ru:8101/Pic/bush-kill-bush-foot.jpg


There is a huge difference in disagreeing with your president, and wanting him killed because you disagree with him.

As angry as republicans got at Bill Clinton, I have yet to find a record of something like this being sold.

This makes me very sad, and I think its time to stop this before we let it go too far. I think this is taking it too far already.


This was not directed at anyone on this site by the way. This is a general observation of mine.

[Razorback]

Oh, the republicans did their own number on Clinton.

[karmattack]

You can criticize and still show respect.

You can dislike and still show respect.

You can HATE and still show respect.

I am not saying you should have to like the President. You do not have to like him to be respectful of is position as OUR Commander and Chief.


I have to say, I think HATE is far stronger than disrespect. I don't hate our president, but I don't have much respect for him or many of his positions.

That said, I don't think what your professor did was right and he should be reprimanded (I hesitate to say 'fired' because that's not for me to say). As a teacher and authority figure his actions were very irresponsible.

But about the rest of your post, the t-shirt, etc:
I also think it's irresponsible to take something you disagree with and try to say when and where people can express it publically*. We as the public should be able to say what we want, wear what we want, and for the most part do what we want as long as it's not hurting or perverting the rest of society. I think people should be able to wear that shirt, over-the-top and absurd as it is, and afford themselves the right to be ridiculed as lame-brained jackasses.

Sorry about your frustrating situation, BAMSS.

*By publically, I mean outside of work, school, or within organizations that have a set guideline or standard for moral accountability.

[JaimePaulFalcon]

Random lets not fight interjection. I'm at a party at my friends and tivo'd Austin City Limits is on, and I just want to thank god for Austin City Limits where else could you see Ray LaMontagne.

[BAMSS04]

I have to say, I think HATE is far stronger than disrespect. I don't hate our president, but I don't have much respect for him or many of his positions.

That said, I don't think what your professor did was right and he should be reprimanded (I hesitate to say 'fired' because that's not for me to say). As a teacher and authority figure his actions were very irresponsible.

But about the rest of your post, the t-shirt, etc:
I also think it's irresponsible to take something you disagree with and try to say when and where people can express it publically*. We as the public should be able to say what we want, wear what we want, and for the most part do what we want as long as it's not hurting or perverting the rest of society. I think people should be able to wear that shirt, over-the-top and absurd as it is, and afford themselves the right to be ridiculed as lame-brained jackasses.

*By publically, I mean outside of work, school, or within organizations that have a set guideline or standard for moral accountability.




First,

The President of the United States is a position as well as a man. That position commands respect, there for the man SHOULD be respected. You are right though, you don't have to respect him personaly.

Yes, hate is more powerful than disrespect. I never said it was ok to hate President Bush, only that disrespecting him in public( not by questioning his judgment, or disagreeing with his policies) is not something that should become acceptable. I know you can do it, hell, you can do a lot of things. Does it make it right? No! It's not right. I am not saying lets make it illegal or anything. I am merely stating that this is not something that should be considered acceptable behavior. You think that it should be? Fine we'll just agree to disagree on that, because it is a matter of personal opinion anyway. I


On the other hand, that shirt IS illegal. How can you, as a member of this country, possibly defend someone wearing a shirt that spproves the murder of YOUR President? How can you think that it is ok, ? Saying he is stupid is one thing, calling him an asshole, a motherfucker, a bastard, a cocksucker, or anything that would be considered disrespectful is one thing. However, for someone to promote the murder of OUR President is quite another. This is not a matter of personal opinion here Karma, this is about the law. That shirt conveys a threat to the life of our Commander in Chief and is illegal.

§ 871. Threats against President and successors to the Presidency
Release date: 2005-08-03
(a) Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Threat/Threaten- declaration of an intention or a determination to inflict harm on another, endanger: pose a threat to; present a danger to, to utter intentions of injury or punishment against, to be a menacing indication of something, an indication or source of impending danger; declaration of an intention to harm, injure, etc.

[karmattack]

Random observation: you seem to like getting people to stop talking about things. Wanna fight about it?

[BAMSS04]

Random observation: you seem to like getting people to stop talking about things. Wanna fight about it?


Not at all.

I like you a lot Karma, I repect your opinion. I love to hear your side of things. The same with most everyone on this board. No, I don't want to fight with you. No, sir, never.

Now , if you think that I am off the mark about that being a threat to the life of the President, by all means lets discuss it if you like, but I don't want to fight. :) If you want to continue to discuss any part of my posts I honestly would love to.

( I know I come off as an asshole, but I am really not that bad.)

[karmattack]

I get what you're saying, BAMSS, and I'm not really trying to make an argument out of it. What's against the law is if someone were to talk of a plan or an intent to kill or harm the president, or otherwise say "I am going to kill the president." To say that the president should die or to wish harm on him without intention isn't illegal. I think the shirt is childish and anyone who would wear it is automatically morally suspect, but I think expressing ideas openly is a right that everyone is afforded.

[karmattack]

Random observation...
Not at all... Sorry, I was talking to JPF there. I should have quoted him. :) No offense, brotha'.

[BAMSS04]

I get what you're saying, BAMSS, and I'm not really trying to make an argument out of it. What's against the law is if someone were to talk of a plan or an intent to kill or harm the president, or otherwise say "I am going to kill the president." To say that the president should die or to wish harm on him without intention isn't illegal. I think the shirt is childish and anyone who would wear it is automatically morally suspect, but I think expressing ideas openly is a right that everyone is afforded.

Accourding to that law I posted, to be a menacing indication of something, is also considered a threat. That shirt is very menacing.

[karmattack]

Well at least we can agree that it's definitely not something a smart person would wear.

[Psyche]

Well at least we can agree that it's definitely not something a smart person would wear.



yes, but let's see if you can stop them. while you're at it see if you can get people to wear size appropriate clothing

[BAMSS04]

Well at least we can agree that it's definitely not something a smart person would wear.

Yes, that we can do.


Listen, I am not trying to impeed freedom of expression/speech or anything. However, this shirt is not an example of that. It is nothing more than a threat. That whole company has KILL BUSH products for sale.

[BAMSS04]

I found out that The Secret Service is investigating the company that makes the shirt.

Apparently the company was selling them at CafePress, but then the site stopped carrying the shirts. Now they sell them personally, and are being investigated.

[cberquist]

You poor victimized republicans. I don't know how you can manage to get through the day fighting all your good fights, against such powerful forces who want nothing more than to suppress your beliefs. Don't worry. Some day conservatives will be in the majority and things will be way different.

[Psyche]

I found out thatThe secret service is investigating the company that makes the shirt.

Apparently the company was selling them at CafePress, but then the site stopped carrying the shirts. Now they sell them personally, and are being being investigated.


eh. no offense. but i think that's bullcrap. if they didnt want idiots to have free speech they shouldn't have gven it to them. you can't selectively say you can say what you want but this other person can't. yes it's a stupid shirt but the constitution gives them teh right to make it. otherwise what's the point in having the constitution in the first place? this is like the time around 9/11 where i sent around the list of songs that were suggested not to be played on the radio and got an email back from a firefighter saying i was a horrible person for thinking it was wrong that it's ok to trample on our civil liberties to catch terrorists. if everyone thought like that..the terrorists have already won. you may not like what they had to say but they have the right to say it.

[BAMSS04]

You poor victimized republicans. I don't know how you can manage to get through the day fighting all your good fights, against such powerful forces who want nothing more than to suppress your beliefs. Don't worry. Some day conservatives will be in the majority and things will be way different.


Yeah, it is tough. I get by though, one day at a time. :rolleyes:

[BAMSS04]

eh. no offense. but i think that's bullcrap. if they didnt want idiots to have free speech they shouldn't have gven it to them. you can't selectively say you can say what you want but this other person can't. yes it's a stupid shirt but the constitution gives them teh right to make it. otherwise what's the point in having the constitution in the first place? this is like the time around 9/11 where i sent around the list of songs that were suggested not to be played on the radio and got an email back from a firefighter saying i was a horrible person for thinking it was wrong that it's ok to trample on our civil liberties to catch terrorists. if everyone thought like that..the terrorists have already won. you may not like what they had to say but they have the right to say it.

They haven't arrested them. They are investigating the intention behind making that shirt. If there intention is to inspire someone to MURDER the President. They have commited a crime and will be punished as such. Free speech has nothing to do with it. You can not threaten or try to solicit someone to kill the President of the United States. No, you have no right to do that, and it is in the Constitution.

More than likely they will not go to jail, most people get off with a warning.

[Psyche]

They haven't arrested them. They are investigating the intention behind making that shirt. If there intention is to inspire someone to MURDER the President. They have commited a crime and will be punished as such. Free speech has nothing to do with it. You can not threaten or try to solicit someone to kill the President of the United States. No, you have no right to do that, and it is in the Constitution.

More than likely they will not go to jail, most people get off with a warning.


they're not soliciting them to do it it's just a play on words. what was the one incident where the girl was kicked off the plane after she had bought a plane ticket and checked in because she was wearing an anti-bush shirt? it's freedom of expression. it may be stupid but they still have the right to do it. that's what our country is all about.

[BAMSS04]

Bush Sucks a big Wanker = Anti-Bush

Kill Bush= Possible threat to the life of the President.

After doing a little research it has been discovered that this company is tied to a Norwegian site that put a bounty on the head of the President.

If the Secret Service is investigating it then there is obviously something much more than a "play on words" about this.


I have stated my views on this. These people were wrong. Plain wrong. They have threatened ( all be it in a round about way) the life of the President. They WILL answer to the Secret Service now.

[Gotherella]

Not trying to start any shit here, but just to be fair, "liberals" don't seem to be the only ones advocating violence on t-shirts and stickers. Here are some "conservative" goodies:

http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/686740

http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/502366

http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/291484

http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff.7751349

And here is another "liberal" model that didn't get as much publicity:

http://www.foulmouthshirts.com/Political-t-shirts/shirtpages/Kevorkian-for-White-House-Physician-T-shirt-Political-T-shirts.htm

There are plenty of people on both "sides" who are haters. Too bad the squeaky wheels get all the publicity -- intelligent discussion and rational disagreement don't make for good t-shirts.

[BAMSS04]

Those shirts are all horrible.


Goth, thank you for pointing that out, and I am ashamed that people in my party would stoop so low. However, none of those shirts convey a threat to harm the President of the United States. The other T-shirt you showed by the liberals is close but I would even defend the right for them to make that horrible thing, because it never says kill the President. The shirt I am talking about says "KILL" Bush.

I am not understanding why anyone could blame the Secret Sevice for investigating it. They are not arresting anyone , as of yet. The company has ties to another site that put a bounty on President Bushs head( those people were arrested). The Secret Service investigates all threats mad against the President. You can't do it. This is not a matter of taste, opinion, political affiliation, or freedom of speech. You can not threaten the life of the President. It is illegal.



( By the way, Welcome Back , I missed you! :))

[FanGirl]

Just a note on FBI lists, if you ask if you have one, you get one. The rationale is that you wouldn't ask if you didn't think something you did was worthy of one. Hoover's paranoid practices still linger today.

I'm not sure if I have one or are just in other people's, but those are stories for other times.

[karmattack]

Here's a major point with this specific piece of propaganda: it's an obvious joke. It's a reference to Kill Bill, and any intention the shirt might have is tucked under the connotation of the attitude of that movie. The attitude being fantasy, comedy, exploitation, and bravado. If it was a shirt with Bush's head, a scope sight, and the same phrase.....we'd probably be having a different conversation. Does that make it any better? Eh, probably not. It is different though. I truly believe it's just an expression of frustration through a pop culture reference, and there is no understood "Somone Needs To," "You Should," or "I Am Going To" in the phrase "Kill Bush."

And there is a vast difference between saying that somebody deserves to die and saying that you are giong to kill them. Wait, "vast difference"......"vas deferens." Eh, maybe I'm just being a dick. :) Irregardless, there IS a difference and no matter who is being referred to or what his/her public position is, one of those phrases is illegal and the other isn't. Saying the president deserves to die is not illegal, even if you think it should be.
THREATS AGAINST PRESIDENT - 18 USC 871, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to willfully make a true threat to injure or kill the President of the United States.

A person can be found guilty of that offense only if all of the following facts are proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

First: That the person uttered words alleged to be the threat against the President;

Second: That the person understood and meant the words he used as a true threat; and

Third: That the person uttered the words knowingly and willfully.

A "threat" is a statement expressing an intention to kill or injure the President; and a "true threat" means a serious threat as distinguished from words used as mere political argument, idle or careless talk, or something said in a joking manner.

The essence of the offense is the knowing and willful making of a true threat. So, if it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the person knowingly made a true threat against the President, willfully intending that it be understood by others as a serious threat, then the offense is complete; it is not necessary to prove that the person actually intended to carry out the threat.

And this coming from me as someone who absolutely does not condone violence. At all.

[BAMSS04]

Here's a major point with this specific piece of propaganda: it's an obvious joke. It's a reference to Kill Bill, and any intention the shirt might have is tucked under the connotation of the attitude of that movie. The attitude being fantasy, comedy, exploitation, and bravado. If it was a shirt with Bush's head, a scope sight, and the same phrase.....we'd probably be having a different conversation. Does that make it any better? Eh, probably not. It is different though. I truly believe it's just an expression of frustration through a pop culture reference, and there is no understood "Somone Needs To," "You Should," or "I Am Going To" in the phrase "Kill Bush."

And there is a vast difference between saying that somebody deserves to die and saying that you are giong to kill them. Wait, "vast difference"......"vas deferens." Eh, maybe I'm just being a dick. :) Irregardless, there IS a difference and no matter who is being referred to or what his/her public position is, one of those phrases is illegal and the other isn't. Saying the president deserves to die is not illegal, even if you think it should be.


And this coming from me as someone who absolutely does not condone violence. At all.

This is why they are not in Jail right this second. They more than likely will face no punishment what so ever.

I know it was a joke. My point is that that shirt is treading on dangerously thin ice. The people who made it know it. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Lets just call it what it is.

The Secret Service investigated an eighth grader who wrote a paper and turned it in, about how he would kill Bush. They let him go. Scott free. Just a warning. As they should he was a silly kid, but he did a stupid thing. This is why thy investigate.

Things like this need to be niped in the bud. Quick. That is why they do these investigations.

[karmattack]

I think we are mostly in agreement.

[BAMSS04]

I think we are mostly in agreement.
:eek:


Hehehe........ Now, lets pick a fight with other people who are not as smart as us.

Now Anyone else want some of me? :)


Who was the dude who called me a poor victimized republican?

Bring it!

:D

[By-tor]

Wait, "vast difference"......"vas deferens." Every time I hear "vast difference", I think the same thing. Mind in the gutter.

Eh, maybe I'm just being a dick. Well, I've never been one to argue with you. :p

[Gotherella]

Thanks, BAMSS. I missed you all, too.

I'm sure I just made it onto some FBI watch list because I had to do Google searches for "kill Clinton," "kill Bush," "right-wing violence," and "left-wing violence" to find those shirts. I am now being monitored - hurray!

[By-tor]

I am now being monitored - hurray!So, you're going to take us all down with you. ;)

[actualsize]

Thanks, BAMSS. I missed you all, too.

I'm sure I just made it onto some FBI watch list because I had to do Google searches for "kill Clinton," "kill Bush," "right-wing violence," and "left-wing violence" to find those shirts. I am now being monitored - hurray!Oh crap! I guess I'm really the one being monitored because the Earthlink account is billed to my name...

[Aaron]

Hehehe........ Now, lets pick a fight with other people who are not as smart as us.

... you call me?

[BAMSS04]

Whoops! Wrong thread!

[phit_demon]

Ireland has a goverment? What do they even do?
Our Taoiseach*, Bertie Ahern (left), practises his pole dancing:
http://www.allaboutbuses.com/Harristown_opening_9.jpg




*Taoiseach is basically what we call our Prime Minister.
It's pronounced Thee-shock

[By-tor]

It's pronounced Thee-shockI pronounce it: "whatever". ;)

[phit_demon]

I pronounce it: "whatever". ;)
Gorram Texans.;)
http://www.infoimagination.org/ps/humor/images/texan.jpg

[By-tor]

At least he ain't wearing socks with those sandals. That would have done it.

[phit_demon]

At least he ain't wearing socks with those sandals. That would have done it.
Ah, the subtleties of outdoor crapper etiquette...

[By-tor]

Dig the longneck on the back of the john. Priceless.

[phit_demon]

Dig the longneck on the back of the john. Priceless.
Me and my flatmate Cameron have been laughing at this solidly since I posted it. It's a gem!

[JK]

Ah, the subtleties of outdoor crapper etiquette...

That's French, ain't it? Pronounced crap-ee-ay..?

[phit_demon]

That's French, ain't it? Pronounced crap-ee-ay..?
I don't think Mr. Griffin had that in mind.
When the thing is installed right outside your front door, no amount of frenchifying will save it.