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View Full Version : Reloaded Philosophy: it's a damn deep rabbit hole


Dr3vil
05-19-2003, 05:05 AM
WARNING: Aside from spoilers, this stuff is really heady, anyone complaining about not understanding the movie should hit the back button now, because it's more complex than you probably thought. Some preliminary exposure to classical or modern philosphy is recommended, but not required.

I loved Reloaded, more than the first. Some people watched it for eye candy, I watched it for brain food. I can certainly say my cup overfloweth, I have no idea how many times I'll have to see this movie to start understanding it, but here's a shot.

Many people seem dissapointed or angered by the Matrix Reloaded, and I can certainly see why. It's an insensitive slap in the face for those expecting to get their enlightenment handed to them in an easy to swollow pill form. It demands you be brave enough not only to question everything, but to never stop questioning, because without questions, you're still a slave, still clinging blindly to something you don't know the nature of. This is why I thought it a stroke of absolute genius to proove the prophecy a lie and the "rebellion," to be simply another medium for machine control. The Matrix is not meant to answer your questions, but simply to reveal the desert of the real in all it's abhorrent dearth, in all it's limitless possibility.

On the note of possibility, here's two fancinating and brand spanking new conundrums I got from seeing the flick:

1) The Motivation of Action:

Why do you what you do? The answer to most seems simple: you're aware of your existence and within that, you make choices. A snooty frenchmen (Merovingian) shatters that assumption in Reloaded with the concept of causality. You are what you are and you react in a very predictable fashion based on your genetics and you're conditioning (summed up by Mero as who and what holds power over you). It certainly concurs to some extent with physics, we have a concept of "randomness," but all the things we consider random, from the roll of dice, to electric signals interpreted by our brain are still subject to the laws of phyics. Our calling it "random" only reflects our inability to predict it, not it's ability to be predictable. If everythings predictable, only one sequence of events can ever occur, and there is no possibility. Without possibility, how can we choose? If fate or physics only leads us to one possible choice, how is that choice ever free?

The physics of choice may not be a hindrance, however, as the the oracle reveals. Free Will isn't just random action, it requires that our choices be a reflection of ourselves. The Oracle tells neo he's already made the choice, his task is simply to understand it. Further defending free will is the fact that even if it is predictable, subject to casality, that doesn't mean it's possible for us to predict it. "Choice" was the supposed anomaly of the matrix, and even the mathematical skills of the machines were insufficient in solving this "imabalanced" equation.

However, chiming in to crush our hopes once more, Agent Smith claims it's our goals that bind us. We can never be free because we are always slaves to purpose, our choices are locked in action by who we are. We never really "choose," we just react. This would make self discovery and questioning a trivial concern in the face of our enevitable, unalterable nature. Such a view is quite suiting of Smith, who is far more concern with enforcing his will on as many as possible instead of questioning himself, which brings me to point two...

2) The Uber Mensch:

Famous for the quote "God is Dead," Frederick Nietzsche's philosophy and his central concept of an Uber Mensch is magnificently represented in the character of Agent Smith. To summarize (bastardize?) his theory in three quick bullets:

- Most people are simply mindless sheep, or camels as it were, carrying on the traditions and perogatives they are taught, unquestioningly. These people, most people, are naive and weak.

- People do everything with the aim of empowerment. We learn, we make money, we cultivate relationships, all and only to gain power. No action is taken without an eye toward our ego and how much influence we gain or lose.

- An Uber Mensch (translated from German as Over Man or Super Man) is has a far stronger will than the average person. They gain power by disregarding the value of what they are told and creating thier own rules and values. They are powerful enough to exert their will over others. By their influence, they are history and nature's most powerful force, inciting all revolutions and meaningful advances.

Agent Smith's assimilation of others is not only a really cool looking effect, it's a perfect metaphor for how an Uber Mensch exerts his will over others to garner support. Smith however, exceeds limitations of human ovemen in his robotic inability to be compasionate (a sign of weakness to Nietzsche), and the result of, not an obient slave of his philosophy, but an exact replica of himself. Smith is a hyperbolic example of the Uber Mensch, perhaps meant to exemplify the immorality and inhumanity that Nietzsche's theory has been so frequently ridiculed for endorsing.

Giving props to this much maligned classic theory has significance in the synergy between Neo and Agent Smith. It certainly exemplifies the ego-mind duality I believe to exist in all of us.

True, I've seen quite a bit of my own philosophy in the Matrix, but such a confirmation bias has not prevented me from being astounded by Reloaded. The theories on the nature of choice in particular are simply mind blowing, and the arguments weave into eachother in a way marvels and baffles me. Now if only I can convince my Philosophy teacher(s) to show the movie in class and pay for a trip to Revolutions. I'm majoring in the damn thing, I should be able to find one sucker...

Razorback
05-19-2003, 06:51 AM
I agree with a lot of what you are saying except for this being very complex. I just think that the first movie was "easy" and this one is more difficult. Had the first been less of an insult to the intelligence of people who actually gave a shit about its philisophical points I would have liked it.

Reloaded is an insult to the people who thought they were involved in a stimulating experience at their "level". /forums/images/icons/wink.gif I dig that about this movie. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

RB

Efexeye
05-19-2003, 08:14 AM
Yeah, now its' intellectually snobby and hard enough to figure out for RB to enjoy! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Razorback
05-19-2003, 09:01 AM
Bingo.

RB

Tongue
05-19-2003, 10:08 AM
Jeez, you must be great fun at dinner parties. Why does everything have to be analysed to death? Does anyone really think that when the directors made this movie they really wanted it to be so deep and meaningful that you need a philosophy masters degree to undersatnd it or do you think they wanted to make a blockbusting summer movie so that they can make a helluva lot of money and if someone (most probably and over-analytical American) stops to think about the philosophy involved then that's just a bonus????
I don't mean to have a dig at you Americans but you must admit you do like to analyse things to death alot more than most cultures ( the fact that almost everyone in the States has been to therapy of some kind proves this). Sometimes it's good to just sit back and just let the film be what it is......a film. One with big explosions, good fighting scenes and nice special FX. If you want to look inside the movie and think about what it might be suggesting then great but come on, it's just entertainment at the end of it. If this trend carries on I hate to think what philosophical message you will find in Freddie Got Fingered.

DangerSeeker
05-19-2003, 02:11 PM
I'd much rather have them at a dinner party than somebody who simply assumes that something they didn't see is not the case or not possible. The analysis of this movie is sparked by seeing the subtext and exploring it through places in the movie you may not have first noticed it.

I'll admit to concocting crackpot theories on movies before, but maybe what sets certain "entertainment" above the rest is the deeper meanings and messages. There's a thing in writing classes called theme. It's usually pretty important in any deent written work. Without a theme, all you have is a bunch of stuff happening. When that theme gets complex, you can argue that it's a big movie, has explosions, stars Keanu Reeves, or whatever, but none of that proves the movie is hollow just because you didn't see the forest for the trees.

I'm probably going off more than I should, but I'm a David Lynch fan and for years have been dealing with people who dismissively claim that he's just weird to be weird. If you don't get something, admit you don't get it, but don't claim that there's nothing there and everyone else is wrong. That's arrogant, closed-minded, and in cases like this, distracting to people who actually want to have a conversation about something we agree on, more or less. You can claim this is snobbish, but isn't it just a snobbish to say that you inherently understand all of the filmmakers' intentions, so we should just stop talking?

By the way, the Wachowskis had the cast read Nietche, amongst other things, to get what was going on. So you're wrong about it being not intended.

Matt1
05-19-2003, 05:11 PM
I think the reason we Americans have a tendency to over-analyze things or read to much into them is the fact that we have no predominant culture. We have no real traditions, no unifying religion. In Italy, like 99% of the people are catholic, and the culture has existed for so long that they are steeped in tradition. America is a fairly young nation, that is both religously and ethnically diverse. So instead of all going to the same church, we all go to the same movies. Popular culture is our culture. So we analyze it quite a bit. Gen exers can all relate to Star Wars, and my generation can all relate to the Matrix.

DarthMaulRat
05-19-2003, 05:14 PM
Let's face it, a studio never risks spending 300 million on a movie that isn't accessible by everyone. That's what is so great about Reloaded, its a big movie that isn't afraid to find acceptance by a more limited audience. This is probably the first time that a major studio has ever accepted the fact that some people are smarter than others.

Rejoice. Blockbusters can now have depth.

Tongue
05-19-2003, 05:44 PM
At no point did I claim that the film was hollow or that there was nothing there as I'm sure there is, I was just questioning whether movies should really be disected in such a way and it's components poured over and analysed in an attempt to discover exactly what the point or message in it might be, I know movies often have messages and some are more blatent than others ( almost every sporting no-hoper-proves-the-doubters-wrong-and-wins-againstall-odds movie shows a la Mighty Ducks/Rocky) but surely when you begin to pull a movie apart this way after a while the entertainment factor is in danger of being non-existant and the philisophical meaning takes over.

Furthermore I myself am a great fan of David Lynch and his unique brand of movies and I even found myself yesterday trying to explain to doubters that John Walters' Pink Flamingo is a lot more than an appalling pile of sh1t and is actually a very clever and insightful look on modern day morals. So I'm not saying that I am unable to understand what the matrix is saying underneath the action and highly paid eye candy just that sometimes it's nice to just sit back, chill out and give 2 or 3 hours of your life to entertainment and come away with a smile on your face.

While I was not a fan of the 1st Matrix in the slightest almost all of my friends think it's one of the best things they have seen but not one of them would know what I was talking about if I went into the philisophy of it, they loved it because it was simply a blockbuster with guns, a sexy woman and cool action. And sometimes that's the best way to enjoy a movie.

Omaru
05-19-2003, 06:25 PM
I agree with tongue on that, how else would jay and silent bob and charlies angels be enjoyed? they wouldn't, just leave your brain at the door, or just watch the film and take in the plot moderately, not go all berseker (ripping it apart peice for peice to the best of your ability) analysis on the first watch.

Dr3vil
05-19-2003, 07:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"I was just questioning whether movies should really be disected in such a way and it's components poured over and analysed in an attempt to discover exactly what the point or message in it might be."

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there is any greater message encrypted by the Wachowskis in the Matrix, and that's why it works. It presents a myriad of viewpoints, without judging any of them as right or wrong. The Matrix is a question, not an answer, but the answers you discover by yourself are greater than anything you can be told anyway. When you talk about symbolism in a movie (what does a frankish king have to do with hedonism, causality, and the queen of the underworld?), then intent becomes an issue, but philosophical inquiries sparked by the matrix aren't necessarily given answers by it.

Also, there's nothing wrong with loving it as a popcorn flick. The greatest genius of the Matrix is that it simultaneously appeals to the lowest and highest denometers of our culture with mindless action and complex philosophy. You can analyze the dialougue all you want, but the only deeper reason Morpheous kicks ass with a gat in one hand and a samurai sword in the other is because it's cool.

Efexeye
05-19-2003, 10:42 PM
Dr 3vil, you said it- it appeals to everyone.

And let me commend everyone on a rational and thought-provoking thread.

Nice Work!

Razorback
05-19-2003, 11:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
And sometimes that's the best way to enjoy a movie.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some that is a reason to avoid a movie. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

RB

DangerSeeker
05-20-2003, 09:50 AM
With the explination, I'm looking back at that earlier post and can see where you were coming from. One of the things I love about the Matrix is that I can watch it as both popcorn and steak (protien for the brain). Something about cars blowing up and flipping over just gives me tingles, even after it happened to me once. That's why I could enjoy Blues Brothers 2000 more than Gone in 60 Seconds. More wreckage, pure and simple. I'm just leaning toward discussing the philosophy and such because a discussion of the action would probably fall into "D00d taht trukc smassh wuz l33t!!1" eventually. Of course, most stuff devolves into that eventually. Thanks for the clarification, tho.