Matrix Philosophy - SEQUEL SPOILERS

[DangerSeeker]

Just wanted to get the ball rolling on this, covering any spoiler talk with the subject header. If that don't warn ya, what will?

I'll start with a little one. The spoon in Zion. Neo is given a spoon in the real world from one of the orphans with the explination that he'll know what it means. This could just be a quick reminder of something from the first movie, but as such just doesn't fit. Then it was a way to understand that the Matrix is not a real environment, and the spoon he was holding was simply a virtual representation of an actual spoon. Neo now fully understands and has mastery over the code nature of the simulated world. This one was a real spoon. There is a spoon. Whether in the simulated world or "real," everything that is currently happening is real, and affects them all.

Also, while the spoon was not a spoon, it was code to represent a form of a spoon for spoon purposes in the environment it existed, and in some fashion was a spoon. Since there had to be code to create it, it was not nothing, so while not a traditional spoon, it did exist.

Thoughts? Let's see where this goes.

[Tongue]

When is a spoon not a spoon??? When it's in the pile of crap and philisophical mess they call the Matrix

[jjcourtright]

Now come on, leave the Matrix bashing to Razorback. That is the only enjoyment in his life. Please, don't take that away from him.

[DangerSeeker]

Yeah, I hadn't asked "Who wants to trash the Matrix?" All aboard! No, I asked who wants to have an intelligent discussion about it. I was hoping this thread could be for those who like it, and those who don't would be disinterested.

How is it I can remain so naive, when I see people like Gillian, posting on the wrong boards time after time. Why does hope remain?

[Tongue]

You did ask for thoughts. Those were mine. Next time specify that you only want to hear thoughts from those who like the film that way you can have a good conversation where everybody says the same sh1t over and over again about how much they like the Matrix. You have to admit, it will get boring after a while.

[Omaru]

a spoon is not a spoon when you can make it do weird things like bend using your mind realising its not a proper spoon but an emulated spoon. Real spoons dont bend without physical force unless you are uri geller. but no one said his spoons were real.

[Tongue]

Just because you have never seen a real spoon bent using only the power or the mind it doesn't mean it can't be. Just think of the old philosphical question - If a tree falls in the middle of a forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound?

[marksiwel]

Real Spoon.
1. Maybe the kid knew he was going to see the Orcale and wanted to remind him that she mislead him last time (into thinking he was not the one, but then he was because of her or not?)
2. maybe he is saying Hi and it's just so the audience laughs.
3.Maybe THe spoon was to say that maybe there is more to what is going on in the real world than what he thought.
4. The spoon symoblizes Neo confusion on whats real and what isnt?

I was more suprised by the One dude *Spoiler* The Arethtech (Spelling?) Saying that there have been 5 other THE ONES. That Blew my mind. I hpe they write books or make an HBO CGI Mini Sersies after the Matrix 3 comes out. There more room in the Matrix Universe for the writing of books than in Star Wars.

[Razorback]

I find no real enjoyment in bashing the Matrix but I think that Tongue has covered my feelings on this thread very well.

RB

[Thunderbird1]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Originally Posted by Tonque
Just because you have never seen a real spoon bent using only the power or the mind it doesn't mean it can't be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it does, sorry. There's a small thing called the Laws of Physics that stops things like that from being possible in the real world. Uri Geller, in my opinion, is very good at mis-direction, slight of hand and self publicity but he is not gifted with "special powers". You'll be telling me that there's such a thing as ghosts next! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

As for the spoon thing in the Matrix, my gut reaction is that it's just a little joke for the fans. "There is no spoon" seems to have been adopted as "Use the Force" was for Star Wars.

[DangerSeeker]

marksiwel: I'm leaning toward ideas 3 &amp; 4. There was no spoon in the Matrix, but this is a real one, so there is a spoon.

spoiler (again)
I love the idea of multiple "Ones." It falls into reincarnation. I think they all chose the same door Neo did. They keep returning to this world until they are able to shed all ties to it and move on to become one with the universe. Very Eastern. Eventually, Neo will have to join with the source to merge man and machine into asymbiotic relationship, not them enslaving us or vice versa.

[DangerSeeker]

Tongue: I was asking for a discussion about the concepts of the film, not an opinion of the quality of the film. There's going to be discussions of that. Even if you don't like the movie, but want to discuss philosophy, that's what I was going for.

[Tongue]

And I said that it was a philisophical mess.

[DangerSeeker]

But why? Gimmie reasons. Let's discuss! Care to explain what about it didn't work in detail?

Oh, no. I sound like my ex asking why we were breaking up. Apparently she didn't see my problem with "I don't think we're dating until you pay for everything" after three months.

[Tongue]

I think any reason I might have could be explained in your original spoon post. It just makes no sense and is very confusing. That seems to be the entire fact behind the philosophy shown in the Matrix. It tries to be philisophical but doesn't know what it is and ends up just confusing people so that they think they are not clever enough to understand what that philosophy it but only that it is there and must be good. Psycho babble in a way. Like when you watch Star Trek and they bang on about warp couplings and anomolies in the power nacelles and stuff. u don't really understand it but you don't care coz it obviously works and so you are just not intelligent enough to understand it.

It's simply a case of overloading your imput till you think sod it.

[Razorback]

Or they think the movies philisophical points are actually sound... intelligent, when they are very far from that. There are gigantic holes in the Matrix philosophy (I pointed out a few of them in other posts so I am not restating them here).

In any event, there is a greater payoff in Matrix Reloaded than in the first. The philosophy changes a bit... well, not really. Or does it? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

You will have to see it. I did like the second much more than the first so maybe others will too.

RB

[JK]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that there is still one more movie... One would hope that it will fill in the holes.

[DangerSeeker]

There are definitely holes to fill in, but I grasped quite a bit of what was going on. It didn't seem like babble to me. There's a whole theme of reincarnation, reliving life until ultimately you become one with the universe (choose to enter the source) having shed your ties to this world. I found it amazingly structured, and thoroughly thought out.

[Razorback]

Not really in the first... somewhat in the second.

RB

[DarthMaulRat]

Not really philosophy but a symbolism I found interesting was the kind of tie between the architect and the oracle. It seemed as if the architect represented perfection while the oracle represented chaos, and a stable human world relied on a balance between the two. Because the Wachowskis openely admit to using religions as inspirations, I began thinking of any religion which had a system of two opposite gods. All I could think of was the Irquois legend of the good god and bad god that created the world.

My other thought was that Neo is the only tangible connection between the architect and oracle which makes a holy trinity of sorts, but besides being three entities there are really no other ways to back up that theory.

Any other thoughts on such similarities?

[Razorback]

The "trinity" is a woman called "Trinity". /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

The one thing about the Wachowski brothers is that they are not very subtle.

RB