Yet Another Face off between FanGirl & Razorback

[FanGirl]

Kurt Cobain suicide v. murder?

Let me start by saying that I never questioned the suicide for years. When I was working for The History Channel, I worked with a Producer that had the unfortunate task of doing a segment on Unsolved Mysteries on Kurt. He tried to get out of it because he thought there was no story until he started researching it.

Here's the facts that I was unaware of that swayed my opinion to side of murder:

1. Kurt had one credit card which he never used. He was told to keep it in case of emergencies which he did. He kept it in his back pocket. It was not found on his person. It was used the days during the time he was missing.

2. Kurt had approached his lawyer about divorcing Cortney a few weeks before. He had a pre-nup and Cortney would have got nothing. He also was going to file for full custody for Frances.

Those are the two solid facts that swayed me. All the little other stuff like the suicide note really being a letter to the fans saying he's quitting the music business, the fact that the private investigator for Love is the one who is one of the first people to say he believed it to be murder, the finger prints on the gun being inconclusive, the fact Love went after a woman who was writing a book about it by smashing a bottle in her face...these little things were all things I had heard beforehand. The credit cards and the divorce is what really swayed me over to the other side.

I don't believe he's really alive and that this is all a scam. I don't believe that all conspiracy theories are true. I don't believe any of the alien theories nor that the queen put a hit on Princess Diana.

I do believe that a rare conspiracy may be true such as this one. Afterall, what was done to the the Tuskegee Airmen was just a crazy conspiracy until the government finally admitted and apologized.

I don't know if he was murdered or not, but I believe there is enough reasonable doubt to not believe the ruling of suicide.

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Those are the two solid facts that swayed me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prove the facts. Anyone can say that these things happened. In fact, even if that was true, I would like to know why, with all of this damning evidence against the murdering Love, there is no investigation into this.

You told me, in another thread, that I was wrong about Cobain killing himself... so prove me wrong. Don't just tell me that you disagree with people whose job it is to investigate such matters. Show me, and more importantly the police, the proof and get Love thrown in jail for murdering her husband.

[FanGirl]

If I had that kind of power, don't you think I'd use it?

There have been investigations into this. The police and medical examiners can't prove it was suicide any more than they can prove that it was murder. It's all inconclusive. You can argue it either way.

I choose to believe it was murder because of all the circumstantial evidence has swayed me. Why do you choose to believe it was suicide?

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The police and medical examiners can't prove it was suicide any more than they can prove that it was murder.

[/ QUOTE ]

The police and medical examiners concluded that it was a suicide. They are experienced professionals and base their conclusions on scientific fact. I will not use my lack of experience in police investigation to form an opinion that contradicts their conclusion.

[Dave]

because he thinks Courtney is H - O - T hot!

[DangerSeeker]

ewwwwwwwwwwwww...

[Ryall]

Sorry, but I have to side with Razor here. There was no murder. Just a sad suicide.

1. Kurt had one credit card which he never used. He was told to keep it in case of emergencies which he did. He kept it in his back pocket. It was not found on his person. It was used the days during the time he was missing.

You don't think he could've just had it stolen, or lost it? He was back on drugs, remember. Either way, this has no real bearing on his death, I don't think. People at the end of their rope aren't exactly cogent and careful about holding onto their credit cards.

2. Kurt had approached his lawyer about divorcing Cortney a few weeks before. He had a pre-nup and Cortney would have got nothing. He also was going to file for full custody for Frances.

This means she killed or had him killed? That sounds a little crazy. I'm sure those things made him pretty distraught, and he was already pretty suicidal (see: Rome) before that. Or do you think the OD and the purchase of the shotgun were the work of others? Not being confrontational, just asking. Do you buy it that his suicide note wasn't written by him?

There were other things, the cigar box with his license and such, that make me think he was getting his affairs in order, before doing this.

As to him being alive, well, there's pics on the internet that make that a moot point. Granted, the face isn't clear (or intact), but...

I just don't buy this whole thing that Courtney wanted him dead. He was breaking up with his band, and his family, and on drugs, and troubled by that acid stomach or whatever...seems to me he just wanted out. Sadly.

[Razorback]

The fact that Courtney and I are currently dating has nothing to do with it.

[Dr3vil]

Look, the undeniable fact is that Courtney is a bitch and even if she didn't actually shoot/aid in shooting him herself, any extended time with her could make anyone see the brighter side of a shotgun shell. She's now the biggest skank in hollywood and apparently everyone hates her. Whatever the facts, I say justice is served.

[FanGirl]

The whole thing about the credit card is that they knew he had it just before he died. The idea that someone broke in and removed it off his dead body and had nothing to do with his death seems a little unbelievable.

If I remember correctly (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), but I thought Rome was just an overdose and not a suicide attempt. The shotgun was purchased before Rome. From what I have heard he had decided to move from Seattle and quit the biz entirely. I believe the note was written by him, but it doesn't say anything about killing himself. It talks about leaving the business not life except for the last few lines which "two of the world's foremost handwriting analysts determined that the last four lines of the note were written by a different person than the body of the note."

If you were planning on killing yourself, why would you file for divorce? Wouldn't the whole dying thing take care of that? If he was going to kill himself wouldn't he have changed his will instead?

The medical examiner's findings have been called into question as to not doing the full examination as well as his connection to himself being a family friend of Kurt and Cortney.

I'm just explaining why I lean more toward murder than suicide. I'm open minded. Convince me beyond a reasonable doubt it was suicide. Because as it stands now, there is plently of reasonable doubt.

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I'm just explaining why I lean more toward murder than suicide. I'm open minded. Convince me beyond a reasonable doubt it was suicide. Because as it stands now, there is plently of reasonable doubt.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any reasonable fact that makes me question it as being a suicide. I just see a lot of people (from reading a few different sites) who are considered as being "eccentric" by police saying that they heard Love trying to hire some nut to kill him.

[Mighty_Wingman]

I'm kinda going to go with the Doc on this one.

If I woke up one day and found out I was married to Courntey love ? I would kill myself.

Shit , that letter practically writes itself !

[Dave]

True story, this whole thread/arguement is more entertaining than JLA #100. Just bringing all back around. now carry on with your "discussion".

[Psyche]

i have to side with razor on this one. the fact that medical professionals (ya know people trained to say whether or not it was a murder or suicide) said it was a suicide kinda sways me

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">Well, trained medical professionals aren't always right...They thought my brother was a girl. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif</font color>

[BAMSS04]

Ok, here we go. I believe that it was suicide. However, there are a few holes in the story that bother me.


Kurt had 3 times the lethal dose of heroin (225 mgs) in his blood system. Medical experts say such an amount will leave you incapacitated and cause you to lapse into a coma within seconds, if not kill you instantly. Kurt could not have done this, neatly put away all his belongings, roll down his sleeves and been able to pick up a shotgun to shoot himself.

According to the police reports, there were NO fingerprints on the shotgun, on the pen found with the "suicide" note, or the box of shotgun shells found beside Kurt. This indicates the crime scene was "swept" clean before the body was discovered.

There is evidence that circumstances were manipulated to prevent Kurt from using his own car and gaining access to his own money in the days leading up to his death. Someone also attempted to use his credit card up until the morning of April 8th. Medical examiners determined Cobain had died on April 5th.

Courtney Love was facing a divorce. There is documented proof, including her own voice on recordings, that indicates Kurt wanted out of the marriage, out of the music industry, and possibly full custody of their daughter Frances. Dave Grohl confirmed that Nirvana were about to break up at the time. Courtney's father claims Kurt was going to divorce her on adultery charges. Cobain also took steps to write her out of his will.

Eldon Hoke, singer of a band called the Mentors, claimed he was offered $50,000 by Courtney to kill Kurt in December 1993. On March 6, 1996, Hoke was administered a polygraph test by Dr. Edward Gelb, who is one of the country's leading polygraph experts and teaches the advanced polygraph course for the FBI. Hoke passed a lie detector test with 99.7% certainty that he was telling the truth.

Kurt said he wasn't suicidal to many people in the weeks prior to his death, including the Seattle police, a doctor that treated him in Rome, the people at the Exodus rehab center in LA, his lawyer, and many friends, including his best friend Dylan Carlson who bought him the shotgun on March 30th. Kurt told Dylan he was afraid of intruders at the house.

Cobain's friends say the only person who started telling the media he was suicidal, after he died, was Courtney Love. This goes against everything Kurt himself told people in the weeks leading up to his death. The media decides to go with Courtney's story with no questions asked.

These are just a FEW of the reasons many around the world are wondering just what really happened that first week of April 1994. So I can kind of see why people could come to the conclusion he was murdered, but I'm sticking with suicide just because if the police had a chance at Courtney they would have taken it.

[Razorback]

I have yet to see evidence of these claims. I also remember seeing a TV show about this where the police said that there were fingerprint markings and that the level of drugs in his system was not enough to incapacitate him. I will continue to search for this information (though Internet searches seem to only link to these conspiracy sites).

[karmattack]

I really do think your (or your friend's) points are really interesting. I'm already on the fence about this as it is. The thing for me is that, regardless of who pulled the trigger or who organized his things, Courtney Love is the most responsible party for the man's death in my eyes.

About the rest -- I'm not usually a conspiracy nut, but this does scream of foul play.

[Tongue]

I howeer simply don't care either way.