Army Ranger Pat Tillman Killed In Action :(

[Razorback]

A sad day for those who care. (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/Sports/tillman_afghanistan040423-1.html)

[karmattack]

It's seriously too bad.

Kind of makes one wish there wasn't a war.

[Razorback]

So you are going to hijack this thread for your anti-war agenda?

[KingBison]

A true lost in my opinion. He was a true patriot and my condolensces go out to his family.

[jjcourtright]

Is anybody else bothered by how much attention Pat Tillman is getting? I am not questioning the greatness of what he did. But, just because he was famous prior to joining does that make him more worthy of attention than all the other soldiers?

[Razorback]

No, I am not bothered by it. Tillman didn't ask for it. He did everything possible to NOT receive attention. The news media is of course going to talk about this guy since his story is unique. I am kind of puzzled by your attempt to deflate the honor of this man and his death. I can tell you that his fellow Rangers would be pretty put out by it.

[jjcourtright]

Damn man, ease off. I am not trying to "deflate his honor". Like I said, I am not questioning his greatness, and I am not saying that it is his fault that he is getting the attention. [In best Chris Rock voice] It's the Media! [End Chris Rock voice] I just feel that if one soldier's death is given this much attention, all soldiers' deaths should be given this much attention.

[Razorback]

If Ranger Tillman were alive he would agree with you.

[jjcourtright]

Does that mean you agree with me?

Because that would be two posts in a row and...shit...that can mean nothing but bad things.

[Matt1]

Hero is a word I don't use lightly or often. So when I say that Tillman and all of his fellow soldiers who have sacrificed their lives in service of our country are heroes, it means something.

[KingBison]

Amen to that. Also guys, if you guys could pray. My best friends brother, which is basically my brother ive known them since we were all kids, is staying in Iraq for another 3 months. I just found this out like 30 mins ago and that sucks. Hes been over there going on 11 months, this would put him over one year in Iraq. Please pray for him.

[Razorback]

I don't pray but I will hope for the best for him and everyone else serving in combat zones. I have a few friends in Iraq and Aghanistan and I hope every day that today isn't the day I hear bad news.

[Matt1]

I love these guys (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=7&u=/ap/20040423/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/army_re_enlistments_5)

[ratm1966]

Yeah, that is great. I guess all of the liberal news reports of how Bush is destroying troop morale must be true. I mean, if they weren't true, they wouldn't be re-enlisting.

I would probably re-enlist too, but I am at my 20 year mark next year and it is time to move on out. Gotta let those next in line move up.

[Matt1]

I really don't think this thread should be about politics. Take it over to another one.

[JIM]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Kind of makes one wish there wasn't a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

No karma, it does not.
Wishes are not an option in the real world. Retreat and sticking one's head in the sand will only get the innocent here in the U.S. killed.
It's very sad, but instead of getting in a funk, We should be grateful that Men like Him gave their all for our country, their "all" for us. Their life so we can live in peace, so we can have freedom.
He could have taken the easy and comfortable road, but instead He took the road of honor that has been built with the blood and sweat of those who have served in our country's Armed Forces. Especially those who have fallen.
I and everyone who lives here in the U.S. are in debt to them all.

[Razorback]

The loss of Tillman has only made my support for both fronts stronger.

[Matt1]

I really don't think this thread should be about politics. Take it over to another one.

[Matt1]

I really don't think this thread should be about politics. Take it over to another one.

[Razorback]

My comment wasn't political.

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">I'm proud of him. He turned down millions to fight for his country's freedom. But, so did a lot of other soilders who are over in Iraq, so lets give them some friggin' credit, shall we?</font color>

[Razorback]

Who is not giving the other soldiers credit? This is a thread about Pat Tillman. A man who did what no one else in this country did. Turned down fame and millions to serve his country and in the end made the ultimate sacrifice.

Every loss is important, but this is a loss that thousands, if not millions of Americans can get a sense of and feel closer to than a number in a news article.

By joining the military, Tillman made himself equal to all those who serve in the armed forces, and in death he put a face on the loss of everyone of our brothers and sisters. He lived this life without ever looking for publicity and he died with that wish as well (as his family has indicated).

Ranger Tillman was an extraordinary man who lived an extraordinary life, and he died having done more in 27 years than 99.9% of us do in a lifetime. He deserves his own thread.

[Dr3vil]

The problem I believe smurf was alluding to is that this guy gets daytime chunks of CNN 20 minutes at a time while the 647 other swell, animatically-challenged people barely merit a collective blub, which ain't right to me no matter how you slice it.

You're right that this is the sort of story that reinforces opinions on both sides of the fence, the problem is that isn't true of U.S. deaths in Iraq in general. The ever-rising body count has been a bane to the Bush administration ever since the "Mission Accomplished" banner was hung, PR-wise it's just not an issue they'd want to concentrate on, especially as justification for the war continues to spin like a See n' Say. The press was even criticised specifically by Bush for touting those numbers and other negative Iraq news a few months back, to which they've more or less complied since the sensationalistic aspect was about spent by then anyway. I wouldn't say it does a disservice, but I do think its a tragedy in and of itself.

EDIT:</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I HOPE TILLMAN AND ALL THE OTHER BRAVE PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES IN IRAQ ARE REMEMBERED!

[/ QUOTE ]True dat.

[TAILPIPE]

TILLMAN-- another TRUE AMERICAN HERO!!! But why cant the media honor all the other faceless heroes also!!--- why isn't the lead story on national news about our friends and family over there? I HOPE TILLMAN AND ALL THE OTHER BRAVE PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES IN IRAQ ARE REMEMBERED!

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
while the 647 other swell, animatically-challenged people barely merit a collective blub, which ain't right to me no matter how you slice it

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop it, Dr Evil. You don't actually care about our service people or the deaths they have suffered (which, I would like to correct, is over 800 in Iraq and Afghanistan). I believe you would care if John Kerry or Bill Clinton were in office but because it is Bush you only care that you can quote such numbers as a way to make this administration look bad.

I care about them all, no matter the administration and I support their faith in their mission. Tillman is no more or less important than anyone else in the armed forces. Tillman is just a symbol for them all.

Funny that the only people I see complaining about his face being shown across the country are the same people who are against the war (on EVERY board I frequent). Those not consumed by their agenda against it, or for the war, only pay tribute to the man instead of making a political statement.

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
But why cant the media honor all the other faceless heroes also!!--- why isn't the lead story on national news about our friends and family over there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everyone wants their lost loved ones name mentioned on TV. However, a lot of news services report the names and faces of those lost after the family has been notified or the family has requested public mention.

[Ryall]

I think this is an incidental result of celebrity, for better or for worse. When John Ritter died, it got more ink than when, say, your neighbor died in a car crash or some such. Does that make his death more "important"? No. But he is someone that the world knew, so he becomes more of a story. Same with this story.

Tillman was a known athlete who turned his back on millions to serve his country like his grandfather and other relatives did in the past. The story gets more attention due to him being more in the public eye, but he never courted that sort of attention. As Razor said, he did everything he could to avoid this sort of attention.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of him getting more attention than all the other brave people who have died over there, the fact is it's an important story that people should hear. There are too few people, especially professional athletes, willing to follow a cause they believe in if it requires personal sacrifice. And it's especially important for people to see that not all athletes are selfish, spoiled idiots like Eli Manning (what he did at yesterday's draft, a day after Tillman's sacrifice, makes me wish no one would sign that little turd at all, but of course this thread's not about that).

At any rate, the media isn't focusing on the guy because he's more "important" than other soldiers, but because, in their world, he's more of a story to the masses. Be honest--when you hear five soldiers died yesterday, did you go look up their bios and read their stories? They're out there in the press, too, and their sacrfice is just as important as Tillman's. But because of who he was, a professional athlete and "celebrity" who joined the service, he naturally garners more interest, from media and from the world at large.

Either way, it's a damn shame, as is every death over there. The man was quite an inspiration.

[Razorback]

Damn, you made me tear up (and I am a stone cold evil dude).

[Dr3vil]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Stop it, Dr Evil. You don't actually care about our service people or the deaths they have suffered (which, I would like to correct, is over 800 in Iraq and Afghanistan).

[/ QUOTE ] Is it really that awful to imagine I might be a real person with real sympathy? Aristotle considered sympathy a vice wherein it extends beyond logic, and if I seem callous its because its there that I'm stuck. I can't do anything. Hundreds dead in Iraq and with more each month because one man is too proud to go to the nations he defied, hat-in-hand, seeking aid and too foolish to create an economic policy that will support them with all they could use to secure the country.</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I believe you would care if John Kerry or Bill Clinton were in office but because it is Bush you only care that you can quote such numbers as a way to make this administration look bad.

[/ QUOTE ] No, they do make this administration look bad, that's why the administration doesn't like them being quoted at all. If I make them look particularly bad, its because I see them as bad, and I'm trying to relate my perspective, which you of course reserve the right to have no interest in, but if you've indulged me this far, imagine this perspective: all those lives are lost, all those soldiers are living in torturous fear, and all that sacrifice is in vain. It was never needed to protect this country, it'll continue unhindered as long as this man is in power, and since my vote will be consumed by Virgina's electoral college, there's approximately jack shit I can do about it.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Ryall:
...the fact is it's an important story that people should hear. There are too few people, especially professional athletes, willing to follow a cause they believe in if it requires personal sacrifice. And it's especially important for people to see that not all athletes are selfish, spoiled idiots...

[/ QUOTE ] I guess I forgot that part, it's just been so damn long since we had an admirable athlete instead of the ones that are admired regardless.

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
No, they do make this administration look bad, that's why the administration doesn't like them being quoted at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

You find comfort in the administration looking bad... you take pleasure in our losses because it serves your agenda well. You make yourself look bad.

A good philosopher spends wisdom on reality.

[jjcourtright]

This guy seems to be quite an ass: Espn.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200)

[karmattack]

wow


just.......wow


I would pick this apart, but I need a question answered first.

Who in the hell pissed of Rainman and how did his third-grade opinion get posted on a website?

[Threadkiller]

"I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face "???

Apparently, the crap that Gonzales writes deserves even less attention than the crap we post on here. If only ESPN were above reporting this tripe.

[jjcourtright]

Yeah, you don't see my musings all over ESPN.com...but someday...

[Razorback]

And that child has done what with his life? I was the EIC of a college newspaper... college reporters are mostly idiots who need to be heavily edited for bad grammar and poor spelling. This guy is just trying to be shocking to gain some attention.

[bwdial]

I saw this on Tidefans.com earlier...I still feel the same as I did when I posted about it there. I can't really be as profane there.
This [censored] deserves to be the victim of a terrorist attack. It made me ill to read what this self important prick thinks passes for intelligent writing.
Fuck you Rene Gonzales. [censored].
Sorry. I'm back to my normal reasonable self.

[Matt1]

How sad.

[karmattack]

Since he's obviously an expert with knee-jerk reactions, maybe we should take his apology (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792673) seriously.

[jjcourtright]

So can anybody that is/was in the military or knows more about it than me explain why they "promoted" Pat Tillman from an E-4 to an...E-4? Doesn't a promotion usually entail a change in rank?

[Dave]

Here (http://media.dailycollegian.com/pages/tillman_lobandwidth.html?in_archive=1) is a link to this ass Gonzalez's original article. I read it and was infuriated by it, but should the kid be thrown off of whatever board he is on at UMass?

[karmattack]

No. He should have his freedom of speech, especially considering that's something Tillman himself died defending. I just can't believe it got posted anywhere.

[Dave]

Yes, his editor should have told him to re-write it, so it wasn't so inflamitory.

[Threadkiller]

Fire the editor?

[Dave]

When in doubt....

[Dr3vil]

Wow, that ESPN guy is an ass, some people will say anything inflamatory to get a few seconds in the spotlight.

Sorry, I couldn't get back to this sooner, finals snuck up on me like an anvil, now let the dead horse-flogging commence!</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
You find comfort in the administration looking bad... you take pleasure in our losses because it serves your agenda well. You make yourself look bad.

[/ QUOTE ] My "agenda" is saving this nation and I don't believe the exact same policies that led to the ongoing tragedy of this thoroughly unjustified war are going to lead us out, but if the victims can make anyone see that, I can still say not a one of them died in vain. I'm not concerned if what I said or the way I phrased makes me look bad, as tainting any of my words with insincerity is the only thing that stands to make me bad.</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
A good philosopher spends wisdom on reality.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, many good philosophers struggle like hell to even define reality, but that's beside the point. I am spending my wisdom on reality. Reality isn't just a rock that no one can see, its also a collective interpretation, and no matter how ass backwards someone's interpretation of reality may seem, its still very real to them and they still act accordingly. Your only bid is to try and understand it, break them out from the inside and maybe even learn something yourself from the process. Most people don't bother going that far, they simplify opposing rationalities into easily denied, cardboard cut-out labels, but saying someone believes something "irrational" only reveals you don't understand their rationale. Philosophy asks for a "why" first and foremost, saying your right and someone else is wrong never answers that "why."

[ratm1966]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
So can anybody that is/was in the military or knows more about it than me explain why they "promoted" Pat Tillman from an E-4 to an...E-4? Doesn't a promotion usually entail a change in rank?

[/ QUOTE ]
The military has two ways of looking at a person's rank. One is the actual rank, and the other is their pay grade. E-1 thru E-9 are enlisted personnel. O-1 thru O-11 are for officers.

Now, with this in mind, the Army has two ranks which fit into the E-4 paygrade. They are Corporal and Specialist. He was probably promoted from Corporal to Specialist. The Air Force used to have two ranks which fit into the E-4 paygrade also, but they got rid of one.

[marksiwel]

Wow...So your telling me everyone in the goverment is just viewed as a number...no way

[ratm1966]

Yes, it is pretty much that way. Kind of the same with the civilian employees too. They have different types of pay grades too. The two primary ones are GS and GG; both go from 1 - 15.

[marksiwel]

So what about the rest of us? Are we 1's and 0's. DO WE LIVE IN THE MATRIX!?! Woah!

[ratm1966]

YES!!!!

[jjcourtright]

He did get promoted from Specialist to Corporal. It just seems like it really isn't a promotion as it is the same pay-grade. Not that Pat Tillman had to worry about pay then or now. It just seems like he didn't get a promotion but the army wanted themselves to look good by giving him a posthumous "promotion".

[karmattack]

http://www.karmattack.com/avatars/drew/unclefark.jpg

[Razorback]

Many KIA are given posthumous promotions if killed close to their promotion date. It happens all the time. You are ignorant.

[jjcourtright]

And you are an ass. I was asking a question. I was wondering why it is called a promotion when his pay-grade stayed the same.

[Razorback]

You were not asking anything, you made a statement.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
He did get promoted from Specialist to Corporal. It just seems like it really isn't a promotion as it is the same pay-grade. Not that Pat Tillman had to worry about pay then or now. It just seems like he didn't get a promotion but the army wanted themselves to look good by giving him a posthumous "promotion".

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is your question? I responded to this statement.

[karmattack]

From Page 2 </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
So can anybody that is/was in the military or knows more about it than me explain why they "promoted" Pat Tillman from an E-4 to an...E-4? Doesn't a promotion usually entail a change in rank?


[/ QUOTE ]

[jjcourtright]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
So can anybody that is/was in the military or knows more about it than me explain why they "promoted" Pat Tillman from an E-4 to an...E-4? Doesn't a promotion usually entail a change in rank?

[/ QUOTE ] I was/am still trying to understand how this is a promotion.

Edit: Yeah, what he said.

[Razorback]

I wasn't asking where his original question was, I was asking where his question was in the above quote. That is to what I responded.

[jjcourtright]

But you responded by saying I was ignorant when I was still trying to get an answer. Was the answer supposed to magically present itself to me?

[Razorback]

No, I said you were ignorant in saying that the promotion was an attempt by the Army to "look good."

[ratm1966]

Military ranks are based on Respect and Customs and Courtesies. He might not have gotten a pay raise due to the promotion, but the increase in rank entails more respect and responsibility.

As I stated when I answered the first question, the Air Force used to have two E-4 Paygrades also. One was considered Senior Airman (an airman) and the other was Sergeant (an Non-commissioned Officer/NCO). The Sergeant half of the E-4 paygrade was used as a grace period for the individual to learn the leadership skills necessary for the E-5 thru E-9 paygrades. I am sure the Army does it for the same reason. The Air Force did get rid of the Sergeant half of the E-4 paygrade though, and just started teaching the Senior Airmen what they were gonna need to succeed as an NCO.

So, it isn't a pay issue, it is a respect issue. Not that they needed to do it to gain him more respect from us military types, as we already respect him for his sacrafice.

[Razorback]

Well said.

[ratm1966]

Thanks.

[Razorback]

Sen. John McCain delivered the following eulogy, at a public memorial service in San Jose, for Pat Tillman:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"I never had the honor of meeting Pat Tillman, and I'm the poorer for it. By all accounts, he was quite a man, and it would have been a great privilege to have called him a friend. He is remembered as a good son, brother and husband, a loyal friend, an excellent student, an overachieving athlete, a decent, considerate person, a solid citizen in every respect. It is obvious to everyone that Pat was raised in a good and loving family to be an honorable man and to have the courage to possess the virtues that make an honorable life.

"Many American families have suffered the same terrible sacrifice that the Tillman family now suffers. The courage and patriotism their loved ones exemplified is as fine and compelling as Pat's, and their loss should grieve us just as much. Were he here, I think Pat would insist we cherish their memory and feel their loss no less than his. But it was his uncommon choice of duty to his country over the profession he loved and the riches and other comforts of celebrity, and his humility that make Pat Tillman's life such a welcome lesson in the true meaning of courage and honor.

"In our blessed and mostly peaceful society, we're not as familiar with courage as we once were. We ascribe the virtue to all manner of endeavors that only really require skill, fortitude and a little daring, the qualities Pat Tillman showed on the football field. Pat's best service to his country was to remind us all what courage really looks like and that the purpose of all good courage is love.

" He loved his country, and the values that make us exceptional among nations, and good. And he worried after the terrible blow we were struck on September 11, 2001, that he had 'never done a damn thing' to serve her. Love and honor oblige us. We are obliged to value our blessings and to pay our debts to those who sacrificed to secure them for us. They are blood debts we owe to the policemen and firemen who raced into the burning towers that others fled; to the men and women who left for dangerous, distant lands to take the war to our enemies and away from us, and to those who fought in all the wars of our history.

"Pat Tillman understood his obligations, no better than his comrades in arms, perhaps, but better than many of his contemporaries. He must have known that such debts are not a burden but that their recompense earns us our happiness. So he volunteered to take his place in the ranks and defend his country in a time of peril.

"Our country's security doesn't depend on the heroism of every citizen. Nor does our individual happiness depend upon proving ourselves heroic. But we have to be worthy of the sacrifices made on our behalf. We have to love our freedom, not just for the ease or material benefits it provides, not just for the autonomy it guarantees us, but for the goodness it makes possible. We have to love it so much we won't let it be constrained by fear or selfishness. We have to love it as much, even if not as heroically, as Pat Tillman loved it.

"It would be false to pretend that Pat's death hasn't hurt us. The loss of every fallen soldier should hurt us lest we ever forget the terrible costs of war and the sublime love of those who sacrifice everything on our behalf . I respect and mourn his death. But I will not dwell on the grief it occasioned when in better days I remember what he did for us. I will remember that Pat Tillman was an Army Ranger. He served one combat tour in Iraq and had begun another in Afghanistan where he was killed. I will remember that his family and his country lost a good man. But I will also remember that while many of us may be blessed to live a longer life than he did, few of us will ever live a better one. And I will celebrate and encourage my children to celebrate the brief, brave and happy life of Pat Tillman, a most honorable man.

"To Marie, Pat and Danny, to Kevin and Rich, to Alex and all Pat's friends, I can only offer you the assurance that my faith promises me is true. To all of you who loved Pat and were loved by him, he will never be so far from you that you cannot feel his love. And you will see him again, when a loving God reunites us all with the loved ones who preceded us in death. Take care of each other until then, as Pat would want you to. May God bless him. And may God bless us all.

"Thank you."

[/ QUOTE ]