So, I was at the mall today..

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">and I go into this store called 'Edge' and there is this dude wearing a really weird shirt that has a naked nun on the front and says on the back 'Jesus is a [censored].' Now, I didn't have a problem with the shirt or anything (because it is his right to wear whatever he wants), so these two security guards come up to him and say, 'Hey son, that shirt is offensive and we are going to have to ask you to leave.' and he goes, 'Well I have a jacket, if I wear that can I stay?' Now, I was out of there before the officers gave him the answer pissed off because that totally violated his right for the 1st admendment. What do you all think of this, was it wrong of them to ask him to leave or should he just kept on trucking with his shopping duties? </font color>

[Razorback]

His rights were not violated. He is on private property and he must adhere to the rules set by the owners or he can be forced to leave.

RB

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">But there are no rules set in stone anywhere at the mall that says that a person's clothing that is considered to be offensive will be taken off the property. </font color>

[Razorback]

They don't have to be... it is private property. The rules do not need to be stated, they don't even need to exist. The security guards represent the will of the ownership and can enforce rules either based on actual instructions or perceived ones.

At any time you can be asked to leave private property and you must leave or you can be arrested. There needs to be no "legal" condition for the request.

RB

[JIM]

I'm a big believer in personal freedoms.
If he wants to wear it, let your freak flag fly.
But I have to admit, it sounds like the shirt was in pretty poor taste.

However, since a mall is private property, one can be asked/told to leave.
If he refused, police would most likely have been called.
Depending on the officer(s) who would be on-scene, He:
A) would be again asked/told to leave
or
b) would be arrested for trespassing

It's also possible He could be arrested for public lewdness,etc. depending on the state/municipality/township.
I believe this is true for the fifty throughout America.

Remember the guy who was arrested at a mall for the "give peace a chance" shirt at the onset of the current Iraqi war?
That was a case where things were blown way out of proportion. A mall ninja(guard) was taking their job too seriously.
I think all charges were eventually dropped.

[Matt1]

Yeah, I was just going to bring up that "give peace a chance guy."

So the mall has the right. What I think Smurfy was driving at was, does that make it right?

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">Yes the t-shirt was sort of distasteful, but ever since MR. Bush has been in office, it seems that we aren't allowed to wear t-shirts that we feel strongly about.

RB, so if the owners of the find the shirt 'Never Trust a Bitch' offensive, would they shut down the store? Nope, they sure wouldn't because they know someone would buy the shirt and thus fore, get paid in the long run. </font color>

[Razorback]

So now it is Dubya's fault?

The ownership (or those who represent them) of the mall has the right to ask anyone to leave at any time. Is it right? Yes, because by owning the property you can decide to allow or disallow anything at any time based on your opinion of the second.

I think that sometimes people in America think that their rights give them total freedom of expression, and they do not. In fact, the US is the land of the free... depending on ones level of control. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

RB

[JIM]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Yes the t-shirt was sort of distasteful, but ever since MR. Bush has been in office, it seems that we aren't allowed to wear t-shirts that we feel strongly about.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's been like that for a very, very long time.
If anything, we can get away with a lot more than we could "back in the old days".

Remember Easy Rider?
That crap used to happen a lot more back then.
Living where I live in Florida, I would have gotten hassled a lot for my hair and style of dress if this was the fifties or sixties. It's not like I dress like a bum or anything, Sometimes I dress out of the "norm" that's all.
Back in high school, I was sent home for wearing a Ned's atomic dustbin shirt that said "So you [censored] up!" on the back.
I was a very unhappy boy that day. My parents were cool about it though.

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">If anything, being banned from public places for wearing a t-shirt is more looked out now then it was back a couple years ago.

Yes, it has happened but since 9/11 things have changed and people are less and less likely to be able to use the 1st admentment. It is just upsetting how this person was not allowed to wear a t-shirt because of someone's public views. My mom was offended by it, but she didn't say a word because it is his right to wear it.

So, what I am saying is, that is it ok to wear the 'Never Trust a Bitch' shirt and not get kicked out then wearing a shirt that says, 'Jesus is a [censored].' Now, that is being hypocritical on the owners part. I may be totally wrong on this, but that is just what I think. </font color>

[JIM]

I value your opinion. But It's up to the owner(s) of the property.
Wether we think it's right or wrong is not an issue when things like this happen on private land/property.
It comes down to: "If you don't like it, go shop somewhere else."
If this transpired in a public park, on a public street, etc. then that's a different story.

That's why I love the East Village in NYC, no one gives a shit what you're wearing wether it's in a store, or on the street!

[123eatshit]

so i was at the mall i enetered the "hot topics" store and there is this bitch a hate kristi and she hates me to because i didnt let her suck my dong ......but thats not the point the bitch says "get out ur a man and ur loser at that point a though...lesbo!! /forums/images/icons/mad.gif but kept walking around but the she called me a stupid ass mexican ....wich i have to say i am /forums/images/icons/frown.gif ...but it didnt matter i eric melgoza pulled my pants down in front of everyone in the store and luckly i had to take a shit , omg i took the nastiest shit ever i picked up my pants and ran like a mexican with la migra after him and the people they where like this: /forums/images/icons/confused.gif why god they thought to them selves and i gave the bird as i ran with the stake nuggets still in my ass cheeks and that happened on spooky ooky day or also known as halloween best halloween ever!! /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple">You are a [censored] idiot... </font color>

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Yes, it has happened but since 9/11 things have changed and people are less and less likely to be able to use the 1st admentment

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Smurfy, but this statement is not true. Perhaps you are just more aware of these types of things happening (remember "the summer of the shark attacks" a few years ago, which actually represented a decrease in overall shark attacks across the country), the current climate of speech is probably not very different from 4 years ago.

RB

[JIM]

Aww man... My Flash Gordon Moron decoder ring is'nt working!
I can't decipher most of what he typed!
Wow, "Eric"...
Your so cool, you're cool with a capital K...
God, when is Ryall or Ming going to ban this poster boy for birth control? When God?! When!? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple"> Maybe I am wrong, but did you know that the homeland security bill they are trying to pass will let police or higher officials enter your home to arrest you on terrorisim charges if you say you don't agree with what the president has to say?

I sure didn't before I was brought to my attention earlier today. </font color>

[code6enterprises]

If she was naked, how did you know she was a nun?

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Maybe I am wrong, but did you know that the homeland security bill they are trying to pass will let police or higher officials enter your home to arrest you on terrorisim charges if you say you don't agree with what the president has to say?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please quote this bill. Thanks, baby. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

RB

[ILovePapaSmurf]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If she was naked, how did you know she was a nun?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="purple">Maybe I should have made myself more clear for the perv *cough* I mean distingished codes out there. She wasn't naked. She has her 'friends' exposed with a nun outfit on. </font color>

[JIM]

Wha? Huh?
Who said this? /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[ILovePapaSmurf]

<font color="purple"> Mr. Code 6. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif It wasn't directed to ya! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif </font color>

[code6enterprises]

Now was that so hard?

[Matt1]

I'm not questioning the legality of the issue. I'm questioning the morality of it.

Is it right, in a free society, for someone who runs a business that is open to the public to discriminate against people whose opinions they disagree with?

I have the legal right to do plenty of things. I can call someone a nigger. I can protest outside of an abortion clinic and call the women going inside sluts. A hundred some odd years ago, it was perfectly legal for me to own a slave. Just because something is lawful, doesn't mean it's not awful. And the reverse of that is true as well.

[Razorback]

Is there something about what Ryall posted here last week that doesn't apply to you? No matter the context, leave racist terminology out of your text.

In the US you can discriminate if it is a private property open to the public as long as that discrimination is not based on the persons race, sexuality, height, weight, gender, or disabilities (a few other factors too).

You want to argue morality? Whose morality? Based on what definition? What standard? Culture creates standards and the masses abide by them, while the outcast fight against them. If you are fighting against the social structure of your local mall by wearing an "offensive" shirt then you are an outcast for as long as you continue the practice of working against the culture of that environment.

RB

[Matt1]

I was interested in your morality, since I think that's what the original question was getting at. You seemed to be only attacking it from a legal viewpoint, and I was interested in what you thought about it on a more personal level.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my use of language, I was only attempting to illustrate a point, and it seemed pretty clear from the context that I was condeming that sort of behavior.

[Razorback]

So you are basicly going to keep that word there, despite the fact that Ryall has requested that it not be used?

Ponderous...

RB

[Matt1]

That's me in a nutshell. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Razorback]

That's too bad.

RB

[JIM]

RB, I really don't think it's wrong to use the "N" word in the context it was used.
Like me for instance.
I never brought it up until now, but my racial background
is Chinese-Irish.
I've heard 'em all before.
Like the word "Chink" for instance. Or "Mick".
Those words used a certain way in a certain context does not bother me. I guess the way Matt1 did is an example.
If it's used as an insult, THAT I'd have a problem with! I'd get pretty damned mad! Usually the fists start swinging!
I don't think the word "Nigger" in this case is a bad thing. Or the whole "abortition slut" thing too. he's just pointing it out as an example.
When we really start censoring ourselves in all cases and contexts... that's when things get really scary.

I don't mean to start any crap with anybody on this. I'm just sick of all the P.C. sensitivity that has brought down intelligent debate and discussion in this country.
That, and the double standard attached to it.

[Razorback]

So Ryall's demand that no racist terminology be used under any circumstance means nothing to you?

RB

[JIM]

He said that?
/forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[marksiwel]

Exactly!

Your funny looking, I'm funny looking, lets laugh at each other. (I really do mean this, I'm not being a smart ass.)

We are all different and we should all be allowed to grasp those differences, but also realize those differences are sometimes silly and can be hysterical. Or they can be endearing. Or touching. It doesnt matter we shouldnt blind oursleves to these diffrences. What next are we not going to have first and last names? Just numbers so no one gets mad if I think your name is funny (Harry Dick, Long Dong, and Ash Face. All people I went to school with and okay guys)

[Razorback]

Yes. If you don't believe me then e-mail him and ask him yourself.

In fact... if you want to see what he thinks about this type of speech and what he thinks of people using racist terminology in expressions then go here. (http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=offtopic&amp;Number=34361&amp;Foru m=offtopic&amp;Words=Ryall&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchpage=0 &amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=1month&amp;Main=34361&amp;Search=true#Post34 361)

You can also read the rules for posting when you first register (or when you enter the board after logging out).

RB

[JIM]

Oh.
Then shit-on-me I guess.

[Razorback]

The thing is, you may not be racist and you may not think that it is wrong to post racist words out of racist context, but that doesn't mean someone coming to this site won't find it to be racist.

We lost the last site because people threw around these types of words and then hid behind the "I'm not racist, I'm just using the word" excuse. Eventually people pushed that beyond the level at which Kevin could stomach it.

RB

[JIM]

OK, if that's the way you feel. That's the way you feel.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but that doesn't mean someone coming to this site won't find it to be racist.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that tells me that they did'nt really read my post then, did they? That would be a classic knee-jerk reaction to a word and the word only. That reaction would be wrong.
If someone does'nt has the intelligence to understand the context and the scope of this debate, they should really get over themselves and re-examine life in general. It's people like that who are in a sense the "thought police".

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
We lost the last site because people threw around these types of words and then hid behind the "I'm not racist, I'm just using the word" excuse. Eventually people pushed that beyond the level at which Kevin could stomach it.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I hope your not putting me and others in that category there RB.
I was there when it happened too. people such as "Camel Toe" and Co. were pulling something that was TOTALLY different. That was outright Racism. That was handled in the correct manner. This is debate and discussion with no dark undertones to it.
My God! This is reminding me of that movie PCU...

[Razorback]

I don't know why there is any need to use racially offensive words anyway. You can make ANY point without using those words.

RB

[Dave]

"I have the legal right to do plenty of things."

Yes, but a person has to take responsibility for doing those things. A person has the right to use a racially charged term, but after he uses it, he must accept that others will be offended by that word no matter the context. That is the nature of such words.

In the case of our shirt wearer, i think that it is proper for a facility where there are going to be children present to ask him to cover the offending article. A person doesn't put on that shirt, and not expect some sort of trouble. Just my opinion.

[psychofiend]

I say let the guy wear the shirt about Jesus, he is allowed to wear whatever the fuck he wants. I think that the only people who wouldn't allow that chirt are goddamn Red-Commie bastards so fuck them.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Dunno bout communist, but yeah wear what you like !

However, that said RB was right (damn lol) the proprietor reserves the right to refuse admission whatever reason he/she likes

[Razorback]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
he is allowed to wear whatever the fuck he wants

[/ QUOTE ]

He IS allowed to wear whatever he wants... and mall security is allowed to throw his ass out for wearing it. There actually is a nice bit of harmony at work there. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

RB

[psychofiend]

...and you are allowed to bite my ass... but I don't think that I will make you bite my ass because that is icky.

[Razorback]

Go find yourself.

RB

[ratm1966]

Okay, about the shirt. I think he was just wearing it to offend people, not really as a freedom of speech thing.

It was the mall security guys right to ask him to leave, because it was private property.

I see nothing wrong with a mall owner allowing the one shirt and not the other. He or she might not care about the one topic, but they could be very religious and thus the shirt with the nun would be more offensive to them. Of course, if they were really religious, the other shirt would have bothered them too.

I once had a t-shirt that had a picture of Hitler on the front with the words...'Hitler's European Tour' and the dates of WWII on it. On the back, it had a listing of a lot of the countries from around the world, only those with dates after the end of the war were stamped as being cancelled. I thought it was funny and not racist, because it made fun of Hitler's conquest of the world by turning it into a rock tour schedule. No one I knew ever complained about the shirt. However, if someone did complain to me about it, I would be considerate enough and not wear it in their presence again. But then, that is just me.

[Threadkiller]

Hey Smurf, I can see why you'd be upset. The thing to do is call the manager of the store and tell them you are upset by how they acted that because of it, you won't shop there any more and you will tell your friends not to shop there.

The real problem with racist terminology in any context is that a newbie might see it and assume they can say whatever they want. If they don't see it, they won't copy it. Things have a way of spiralling out of control quickly as they did on the old boards.

As far as the Patriot Act goes, The Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 seriously restricts the rights to privacy by allowing surveillance, search and seizure without a warrant. Also a person who engages in or advocates "civil disobedience" can be classified as a 'foreign power'. So, if I say I disagree with Bush in a public place it could be classified as civil disobedience and I could thereafter lose even more of my constitutionally protected freedoms. Regardless of the intent of the law, the letter of the law is a bad thing.

[Omaru]

I'm surprised many of you replied to pretty much say the same thing. But I do agree with you all. Its all the owner's personal taste. say the owner was a female and the guy has a shirt saying I dunno..
"women are trickass whore b*tches" maybe the guy feels stong about his shirt's statement, but it would offend alot of people, and of both genders no less .