Michael Moore's new book get your copy now !!! [Archive]

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 07:24 PM

Send your receipt to Ashcroft
The USA PATRIOT ACT (for some quick background information on the Patriot Act, click here) gives the police and federal agents the power to go into bookstores and libraries and demand to see the records of customers and patrons in order to find out what subversive people are reading. The stores and libraries are prohibited by law from disclosing the fact that their records have been seized. They are even prohibited from contacting a lawyer for help or advice.

The silver lining in all this is the government's acknowledgement that "subversives" are, in fact, readers. And yes, we're talking about YOU! You wouldn't even be on this website right now if you weren't some sort of closet rabble rouser.

So, why not save the FBI and the Justice Department the bother of going to the bookstore where you bought my book? Why not get on the enemies list right now!? That way some poor agent doesn't have to figure out if you bought my book at a chain store or an independent, or online, or got it for free at a library.

All you have to do is take the receipt from the bookstore of the library (or print out your receipt if you ordered online) and send it to:

Attorney General John Ashcroft
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20530-0001

Enclose a note telling Mr. Ashcroft that you are doing your patriotic duty and you want to get on his list of suspicious citizens today!

www.michaelmoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/dudewheresmycountry/receiptashcroft/index.php)

Razorback

10-11-2003, 07:29 PM

Another Moore drone.

Soon you will all be screaming "mega ditto's Mike!"

RB

Droogan_Leader

10-11-2003, 09:52 PM

You know, I can save you the trouble--you are a wannabe. If you had a proper fear of Big Brother's power, you wouldn't need Moore to tell you how to think. It's all a guise, bub. Meanwhile, well, someone has to line Michael Moore's pockets--why not you?

And, I make it a habit to never buy pinko commie bastard propaganda. So, stick that in your pipe and smoke it, comrade.

10-11-2003, 09:55 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Michael Moore's new book get your copy now !!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I am running low on toilet paper...

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 10:09 PM

communist paranoia is rife again - conform or else?

what can be more communist than that my friend?

JIM

10-11-2003, 10:14 PM

Hey, Dirty Sanchez...whoops! I mean, Jack Sparrow, are'nt you from the U.K.? /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif
Did you pull the type from the Mike Moore webite or something, or was this all you?

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 10:16 PM

Yes thats right!

Does that mean i should not take an interest in your culture?

Droogan_Leader

10-11-2003, 10:17 PM

I am a substitute teacher. In order to become one, I had to have my fingerprints taken, and sent to the FBI. It bothered me, but, it's the price you pay.

Have you done much traveling, buddy? We can't act like the world doesn't hate us anymore. And, being the country we are, well, bad people look the same as good people.

I'll grant that Big Brother's power over us disturbs me, but I don't give Moore credit for anything, other than being a rabble rouser.

Fear is reactive, I proactively detest communists. Get that one straight, comrade.

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 10:23 PM

i have travelled extensively thank you my learned friend and take great interest in other cultures!

It has always baffled me that whenever someone has a controversial opinion in the USA they are a communist??

I may be generalising somewhat but your comments alone further views?

What is your understanding of the word Communist or Communism ??

JIM

10-11-2003, 10:25 PM

Nah, it does'nt mean you should'nt.
It's flattery, being that the U.K. is a hell of a lot more restrictive when it comes to personal freedoms.
I don't agree with some of the B.S. that's been attached to the P.A. and I sure as hell don't want what happened over in the U.K. to happen over here.
George Orwell was'nt too far off on some things.
So, you did'nt answer my question. Did you pull the type from moore's website, or book, or is it a Dirty Sanchez/Jack Sparrow original?
I also noticed that you like to talk a lot of shit about America. What's up with the U.K., huh?
Stop living in your ivory tower there Dirty/Jack...

You know, I'm wondering if you really are in the U.K. or if you're really in the Netherlands... Nothing against the N.L. I liked it there when I visited.

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 10:29 PM

Now theres a man a very intelligent opinion

well said sir

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 11:09 PM

Ivory "Air Conditioned" Towers Jim??

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
It's a sad story, yes.
But, WHAT THE HELL!?
15,000 dead!?
Mon dieu! It's Hot!
It's time to get in the now and buy some air conditioners!

I do question things from time to time about your great country, and it is a great country but i don't take pot shots at the dead

Zens_7s

10-11-2003, 11:30 PM

No, you simply believe every force-fed piece of propaganda that comes out of Michael Moore's mouth. Then you make vast uninformed indictments about American culture (especially in the previous Michael Moore related thread) and expect us to not get annoyed as American citizens. Michael Moore has become part of the very propaganda machine he claims to abhor, and you continue to spread the crap without doing the research required to discover the facts.

I would like to remind you, dear sir, that we fought a war to not be treated as plebeians by citizens of the British Empire. I would suggest sticking to movie criticism, as opposed to American political criticism, where you are coming into the intellectual battle half-armed.

Hell, we could blame England for Hugh Grant but we don't.

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 11:41 PM

You are easily miffed aren't you?

I consider Moore's work to be for the most part political satire!

My views on the last thread were purely of concern, and my opinions are my own not moores or anyone elses.

I don't wanna re-hash the last thread but my main point of view was that i don't agree with your gun policies!!

we don't blame you for bush.... we blame bush snr

JIM

10-11-2003, 11:41 PM

There's this thing called tounge-in-cheek humor Dirty/Jack...
Or, one might say:
There's this thing called dark humor.
Bwah-ha-ha!
As far as that European heatwave, France likes to say that they're "so ahead in this, or that, blah, blah, blah..."
Yeah? Well, Great cell phone networks and the latest fashions did'nt help the dead this past summer!
Add to that, many of their doctor's took vacation at that time. Never catch us doing that... esepcially when people are dropping like flies while "Dr. Depardieu" is sipping wine on the banks of the Siene!
STUPIDE!!! STUPIDE!!! STUPIDE!!!

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 11:45 PM

very funny ? 15,000 dead

Jack_Sparrow

10-11-2003, 11:49 PM

and why we're on the subject dark humour is only ok when its not about your country or your people ??

JIM

10-11-2003, 11:52 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I consider Moore's work to be for the most part political satire! My views on the last thread were purely of concern, and my opinions are my own not moores or anyone elses.
I don't wanna re-hash the last thread but my main point of view was that i don't agree with your gun policies!!

[/ QUOTE ]
YOU are Soooooo full of poop!
If anyone takes a look back at your posts under "Dirty Sanchez", it's pretty easy to see through your "opinions"...

ILovePapaSmurf

10-11-2003, 11:56 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Hell, we could blame England for Hugh Grant but we don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zens, that was the best thing I have read on this site today! Thanks for the laughs. I needed on today. Went to a kid's birthday party and I got the shit kicked out of me! Whoo Hoo! Kids rock. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

JIM

10-11-2003, 11:58 PM

Yeah, and Ali G gets 9/11 confused with 7-11
Big friggin deal.
I liked it when the Onion ran those "HOLY FU**IN SHIT" pieces after 9/11, it broke up the blackness of those days.
By the way, why are you trying to change the subject?
Hmmm... maybe it's because you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to subjects like these?
Ya Moore parrot you!
"Caw! Gun control! Caw!"

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:06 AM

No, I am not easily miffed, nor am I angry with you. I do find it tedious that you are spouting off this rhetoric in threads without thinking first. I am holding you accountable for it; in the California thread, in the last Michael Moore thread, and in this one.

If your opinions are not "moores or anyone elses" then why are you simply cutting and pasting his words into the post?

As a person who is not a passive observer of American politics I take exception to blurting before thinking and researching. I am quite sure if I was on a board populated largely by residents of your country they would love me whipping out gross generalizations about the Labour Party and Acts of Parliament.

JIM

10-12-2003, 12:09 AM

Ooooo!
That WAS nice!
You're great Zens! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:14 AM

Thank you Jim and PapaSmurf, but I couldn't have done it without either of you as inspiration.

Plus, I am more of a Colin Firth girl instead of a Hugh Grant girl myself. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

ILovePapaSmurf

10-12-2003, 12:17 AM

Yes! Colin Firth is so sexy!!! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

So is Alan Rickman...I love that man. His voice is just like Woah!

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:22 AM

You know, I like him too. There is something mysterious and all together cool about that guy.

I am sure DirtySanchez/JackSparrow will be away for a bit collecting his irrational thoughts so I suggest a mini-hijacking of this thread. A tribute, if you will, to the fine men of the British Empire....hmmmm....Colin!

http://www.pemberley.com/photos/firth/hb.jpg

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 12:27 AM

Hey you can say whatever you like about Mr Blair and Labour i am ashamed that they represent our country!!

I appreciate all of your comments regarding this as i have stated before opinions make life interesting even if you don't agree with them !!

And the original thread was copied and pasted from moores site as i found it interesting and amusing! and the reason i post is to get a response !!

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 12:29 AM

hahaha

i prefer colin farrel more of a bad boy lol

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:30 AM

fapity fapity fap...

SHH! You are messing up a perfectly good hijacking by surrendering in the middle. Now that your white flag is raised so soon lets dump some tea in the harbor.

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:32 AM

Ask and ye shall recieve.
http://breedband.telenet.be/film/dossiers/minorityreport/gfx/colinfarrell.jpg

Droogan_Leader

10-12-2003, 12:32 AM

Zen, you, Jim and Smurfette are keeping me up tonight, but it's worth it. I haven't been able to stop laughing at you guys. I think I'm going to have to compile a 'highlights' from this thread /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

ILovePapaSmurf

10-12-2003, 12:32 AM

He makes Bridget Jones' Diary. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif He is mad sexy...I love that picture zens. I am printing it out as we speak and it is going to go up next to my Elijah Wood (Frodo) Lord of the Rings banner. So sexy.....

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:34 AM

Heck, I am just happy because my Cubbies only have one game left! Jubliation ensues.

Someday we should compile a highlights thead. There have been so many classic moments, and many have come from you Sir Droogan.

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 12:34 AM

man he's hot hot startin to wish i was gay ?

hey maybe i can get a new thread goin about that lol?

hotlips_hooligan

10-12-2003, 12:35 AM

Ok I know this sounds totally un-american of me .... But I just watched The Lord of the Rings today for the first time, and I LOVED IT!!! I am oficially on the band wagon!!! I can't wait to see the next one! I am going to see it while in London next week! I am soooooooo excited! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:36 AM

I doubt you would find many of us complaining about that.

By the way, Jim and I love our stars dropping this evening. AH HEM. [Clears throat and makes a face full of wickedness and revenge]

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 12:38 AM

hmmmm mine tooooooo ??

strange things afoot at the shoot?

ILovePapaSmurf

10-12-2003, 12:39 AM

Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing Collin Ferrel kissing a hot guy...*lol* I don't know, but if he was gay, I wouldn't mind. Just seeing that guy kiss makes me all like woah!!

I still think That Ewan McGregor and Hugh Jackman are some other sexy imports. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Droogan_Leader

10-12-2003, 12:42 AM

Zen, Zen, you're too kind...and you like the Cubs too. Who could ask for more? It's an honor to serve at the Shoot alongside you /forums/images/icons/grin.gif and I look forward to many more classic moments together!

...

[Crosses his fingers, gets a really serious look on his face, and says a prayer for the Cubbies]

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:46 AM

Hey, I even behaved myself tonight during the game. Rumor has it I was a little rowdy last night when my drinking had to extend into extra innings also. /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 12:48 AM

damn pirates hijacked my thread and i was gettin so popular!!

go cubssssssssssss lol

JIM

10-12-2003, 12:51 AM

Well, here's some of the fine women of the empire:
Kate Beckinsale
http://starmovies.indya.com/images/kate_beckinsale.jpg
Rachel Weisz
http://drs.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=rachel+weisz/v=2/l=IVI/*-http://hipcat.hungary.org/users/hipcat/rachel_weisz2_small.jpg
Eddie izzard
http://drs.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=eddie+izzard/v=2/l=IVI/*-http://ddraven.tripod.com/miscpics/eddieizzard.jpg

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:53 AM

After that kind of surrender I feel like I should be getting the NWA World Title Belt.

Go Cubs Indeed!

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 12:57 AM

Good call on Rachel Wiesz. If you have not seen her in The Shape of Things it is a must rent. Nobody else can make mean and cruel so terribly attractive.

Matt1

10-12-2003, 01:04 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
And, I make it a habit to never buy pinko commie bastard propaganda. So, stick that in your pipe and smoke it, comrade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me that was a joke.

Razorback

10-12-2003, 03:37 AM

Really... the commie arguments are really boring me. These people are consumed by an anti-republican, anti-corporate agenda and nothing else. This isn't about commies or liberals.

Michael Moore is the American minister of disinformation... when an Iraqi did what Moore does we all laughed at him, but when a scumbag democrat does it he is hailed as a genius. At least if you are going to go after a specific group of people follow a righteous message, not a fictional one. Moore is just playing to the LCD and lazy people buy into it. I discount any point that uses Moore as the primary source.

RB

Dr3vil

10-12-2003, 07:34 AM

Misinformation.

Don't like the word, guess it's the tree of knowledge connotations, that learning can somehow be a bad thing. Just structurally speaking, ignorance of misinformation is a good thing. Ignorance that can be facilitated by keeping a book like this off the shelves or, more popularly, just dismissing it in it's entirety before reading it.

So what if it's propaganda? Are you all so self-conscious of your intellect that you fear being swayed by weak arguments, great leaps of logic, and half truths? Not to mention propaganda isn't exactly in short supply in this country. If Moore's the Minister of Misinformation, is Ann Coulter the champion of truth (or at least pro-tem while Rush is popping pills)? Books with rhetoric sell more than those with dialect for the simple reason that people like to argue more than they like to think. The entire careers of most political commentators consist in selling their opinions so readers and listeners can stock up their armory, dole out the prescribed phrases, and go back to believing whatever they did previous to the altercation, hopefully with the ego boost of being proven right. People who don't want to think will have their opinion eventually persuaded by someone, regardless. I don't begrudge people like Moore for misleading a public that would otherwise be mislead by someone else.

However, I don't find Moore's book to be entirely worthless on that basis. Breaking a thread taboo by discussing the actual content of the book, I found the obviously exaggerated links between the Saudi Royal family and the Bushes interesting, if only in a "I shoulda known that" capacity. With so few in control, the oil market is as much an aristocracy as it is an oligopoly, so links, incidental and intentional, should be expected. This does, however, help to explain why congress went through seven circles of hell getting the administration to investigate the attacks and then to actually admit what they had found. Having so many of the terrorists from Saudi Arabia when the Bush family and Dubya himself have such close ties to the country, incidental though they may be, just looks bad. Undermining the authority of the presidency "bad." If I were them, I'd try to downplay that sh!t too...

See? Information I would otherwise not have gained, without accepting all the inane implications of an Orwellian-scale conspiracy. This is the benefit of looking at many perspectives, even some of the farther skewed ones. Moore specifically makes the deduction that the immediate retaliatory action should have and would have been taken against Saudi Arabia instead of Afghanistan, if not for the ruling empire's personal ties to Bush. It's commonsensical to a point, but immediately assumes such an unestablished level of corruption that it hinges on absurdity. Don't get me wrong, I give none of my politicians the benefit of the doubt, but there are more factors at play than can be communicated in an argument aimed at the mainstream.

That's all within the dryer part of the book though, other bits like a chapter from God, a guide to converting republican in-laws, why the democrats are worthless these days, and why Opra should be the next president, are obviously more fun to read. That's why I bought the book. I can't be offended by propaganda that doesn't convince me, so wherever the dialogue strays too far from reality, I appreciate its entertainment value. Since the days of his short lived FOX show I've always found Moore to be an entertainer first and foremost, and that's how his work should be taken.

If you want something with all the anti-Bush sentiment and a hell of a lot more logic, get "The Great Unraveling" by Princeton Economist Paul Krugman, "Dude, Where's my Country" is more of a coffee table book.

Omaru

10-12-2003, 07:46 AM

I am still impressed with the your first picture posted, I didn't know Colin "Mr Darcy" Firth could smile.

Razorback

10-12-2003, 07:52 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
So what if it's propaganda? Are you all so self-conscious of your intellect that you fear being swayed by weak arguments, great leaps of logic, and half truths?

[/ QUOTE ]

After this I stopped reading. I think that YOU are the one who is afraid, not me. I have actually read his books, watched his movies AND his TV show. I am completely clued-in as to his bullshit. I just find that anyone who wraps themselves up in his propaganda is small-minded and not worth listening for too long (at least until they expand their input).

Moore is basicly a preacher to the converted, and I believe that if you like what he says and don't question it (or want to believe it) then your opinion is a waste of my time.

I like dealing with people who can read off the page.

RB

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 10:23 AM

fine words indeed my learned friend . ."Dude where's my country", is firmly tongue in cheek but also with some genuine issues addressed !!

Zens_7s

10-12-2003, 11:59 AM

Wow. Truly disturbing.

<<Ignorance that can be facilitated by keeping a book like this off the shelves or, more popularly, just dismissing it in it's entirety before reading it.>>

I never condone censorship in any manner, and I read these things before forming opinions.

<<So what if it's propaganda? Are you all so self-conscious of your intellect that you fear being swayed by weak arguments, great leaps of logic, and half-truths? >>

So what, you ask? This type of propaganda is not directed at people like RB, you, or myself. It is directed at the lowest common denominator (also the largest audience) of non-intellectuals who believe propaganda because it is popular and more entertaining than accurate texts. What makes him dangerous is he was awarded, lauded, and condoned by the media. Therefore the public thinks he must be telling the truth. After giving him the media seal of approval, he is fed to the masses to help to further the "point fingers not offer solutions" political agenda.

<<...who don't want to think will have their opinion eventually persuaded by someone, regardless. I don't begrudge people like Moore for misleading a public that would otherwise be mislead by someone else.>>

It is despicable to insinuate an inherent good exists in wrong information because the sheep are learning. You don't begrudge people who lie to the public because someone else will just lie to them anyway? Well heck, I think I will shoot you today, because you will eventually die in some other different way anyway. You can't even begrudge me. Ridiculous.

Two paragraphs down you begrudge Bush for his own covering of the truth, but you defend Michael Moore's ability to lie about the liars to get the common public to see that people are lying. Circular logic ROCKS!

<<If Moore's the Minister of Misinformation, is Ann Coulter the champion of truth?>>

Did anyone here defend Ann Coulter? She isn't better than the other propaganda ministers.

Misinformation is a polite way of saying the word "lie". Lying is lying. We only pretend there are degrees to excuse our own behavior. You are correct; Michael Moore is an entertainer first. However, he is not passing himself off to the public as a self-serving entertainer. He is passing himself off as the messiah of truth, which he is not. He happens to be good at it, and we watch everybody who rented Bowling for Columbine think they are a political savant now. That is truly frightening. When a young English guy comes on our board and starts making assessments on America based solely on Michael Moore that is disturbing. If everybody were reading Ann Coulter I would be arguing against that brand of bullshit also. But we are not.

Yes, it is a coffee-table book, but the very people who are infected with the bullshit take it as the gospel. Hitler was a master of propaganda also. He didn't start out his career saying, "Today I think we should get together for mass genocide". The German masses empowered him slowly. Inaccurate propaganda should never be defended when it is devastating like Hitler, or petty bullshit by Moore.

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 12:05 PM

Hey what happened to colin farrel ??

ratm1966

10-12-2003, 03:22 PM

I still don't see what the big deal is about the Patriot Act. Okay, I go to the book store and buy a book. Big [censored] deal. How does me buying a book reveal any of my information to the government? When paying in cash, the only thing you give up to get the book is the cash. Too many people are believing the hype and are falling for the propoganda that the government is all knowing and all seeing. Give me a [censored] break. If that were the case, we never would have had 9-11, the OK City bombing, or any of the other shit that has gone on. I think some people (like Moore) need to take a big dose of the reality pill and pull their heads out of their asses. If the government was really like Moore says it is, his book would have never even made it to the press, because the government would have haulted it.

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 04:31 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
When a young English guy comes on our board and starts making assessments on America based solely on Michael Moore that is disturbing.

Sorry to revisit this but my assessments on america are not solely based on michael moores opinions?

i am 29 years old and have managed to form some of my own opinions about England the USA and the rest of the world for that matter!

No offence but i didn't realise it was just your board limited to the USA as it is posted on the WORLD WIDE web

Matt1

10-12-2003, 04:53 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Really... the commie arguments are really boring me. These people are consumed by an anti-republican, anti-corporate agenda and nothing else. This isn't about commies or liberals.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was getting at. I just wasn't sure if he was being facetious or actually slandering someone who disagreed with him. I'm still not sure. If it was sincere, I don't go for that kind of stuff, from any side.

I did some protesting in the months leading up to the war n Iraq. While I was out there, alot of people supposedly on my "side" were saying some very ignorant stuff. "Fascist Pig" and "Rascist Policy" were thrown around quite a bit. I asked some of them what they based these opinions on, and they kind of just looked at me bewildered. Moore-faithful types I'd imagine. Name calling like that is what is wrong with this country.

Alot of people say, "Well, it's my opinion and opinions can't be wrong." Yes they can. Back up what you say with facts. Then your opinion will be less likely to be ripped apart in two seconds.

Anyway, I thought this was a movie-geek website? Everytime a political question or issue is brought up, things get kind of ugly around here. My momma always told me never to talk about religion or politics in polite conversation.

Of course, she was a god-less atheistic commie pinko leftist. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 04:56 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Of course, she was a god-less atheistic commie pinko leftist

Pure Comic Genius

JIM

10-12-2003, 05:57 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
If Moore's the Minister of Misinformation, is Ann Coulter the champion of truth (or at least pro-tem while Rush is popping pills)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, she's the mistress of disinformation...
Rush? He's just an Ass**le who has proven he's just as screwed up as anyone else.
*sigh*...
It's amazing how "opinion" has somehow transformed itself into the "truth".
When I'm stating something that is my opinion, I say so.
I don't go about like "chicken little" making it sound like it's fact.
I've read Moore's books, watched his "movies", I used to be a big fan. He fooled me, thinking he was for the common Man and Woman.
For Christ's sake, I even bought my Ex-girlfriend the "T.V. Nation" collection and "stupid white men"...
I've had enough of his bullshit, coulter's B.S., Rush's B.S., Al Franken's B.S., Everyone's bullshit!
Especially guys who call themselves "Dirty Sanchez" and then change their handle to "Jack Sparrow" because they knocked themselves down to one star. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif
So... Dirty Jack, you never answered my question as to why you are always talking shit about the U.S.A. .
Did something bad happen to you with a G.I. Joe action figure when you were a wee lad?
Did you come here for holiday and got disappointed when you found out our "Football" is not "Soccer"?
Just what is the reason? I'm grabbing at straws here Dirty Jack. I just do'nt know what your reasons are... Why don't you tell us perchance?
Oh, no, wait. Don't, your reply is going to be filled with opinion that has somehow become fact! Man, you should work for the national enquirer, or the daily mirror.
If you're so concerned about "global matters", why don't you bring up the fact that many other countries are REALLY F**KED up when it comes to freedom, personal rights, human rights?
Oh yeah, that's right... the world comes to America because it's such a horrible place to live... /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif
I'd love it if I could dump your sorry ass into the country my mother came from. THAT place is bad, THAT place has no freedom, THAT place would execute all of us here for our beliefs and opinions.
Sure were not perfect, but dammit, we are better than the rest. Smoke that in your pipe... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Razorback

10-12-2003, 06:11 PM

With respect to Ann Coulter, have you read her books? While she is crazy in some of her analysis (and clearly, she misses how obviously wrong she is sometimes) at least her books are extremely well researched. She quotes people (and then, yes, tries to imply context when it is unnecessary) and then reinforces the quote with facts; Moore rarely makes that effort. So I respect the pitbull Coulter more than the liar Moore (even though I probably disagree with the two of them equally).

RB

Jack_Sparrow

10-12-2003, 06:24 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Especially guys who call themselves "Dirty Sanchez" and then change their handle to "Jack Sparrow" because they knocked themselves down to one star.

[/ QUOTE ]

I changed it because i like the movie Pirates of the caribbean and i am a huge JD fan which you will see from any of the threads about Depp ! As for stars put me on 0 it doesn't bother me? and hey i may change my id again and again not because of my stars but because i can!!!!!!!!!!!

And just for the record, i think the USA is a great place and i have several close friends there!

However, many countries, mine and yours included have problems it just so happens that ours are more reported as we both have high media exposure due to our global standing thats why you'll find that on most forums where polictal beliefs or opinions are aired the predominant countries mentioned are ours!!

I did not start the thread about bowling for colombine but i commented on it with MY opinions which i stand by as we all have a right to an opinion.

I like Michael Moore's work, evidently not so many people do on this forum! But because i posted a document from Moore's site does not make me anti-american, i merely found it amusing !

Your're not perfect i agree, nor is England, China, France etc etc . . .

For example, in England we are currently receiving more assylum seekers from war torn Nations than any other country in Europe something that Tax payers like me foot the bill for and am then told that there is no money to improve education, hospitals etc but there are countless millions available to wage war in iraq because we have a pussy for a Prime Minister!

And i quit smoking but thanks for the offer

Razorback

10-12-2003, 06:42 PM

Jack... for the love of ALL HELL!!!!!!!!!!! Learn to use the quote feature correctly! You have yet to use it as it was meant to be used. Figure it out or ask for help... argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RB

Dr3vil

10-12-2003, 09:38 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
After this I stopped reading.

[/ QUOTE ]Go ahead, shield your eyes if you must, but you need to stop taking this so seriously. Sure these aren't light matters, but the chances of any of us changing the minds of anyone here are essentially nil. If you have nothing beyond a few seconds to lose by listening, why not indulge me?
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
This type of propaganda is not directed at people like RB, you, or myself. It is directed at the lowest common denominator (also the largest audience) of non-intellectuals who believe propaganda because it is popular and more entertaining than accurate texts. What makes him dangerous is he was awarded, lauded, and condoned by the media. Therefore the public thinks he must be telling the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]In what way other than censorship can stupid people be shielded from propaganda of this sort? The great thing about freedom of speech is that hopefully they'll be enough of these guys on both sides, and the stupid vote will get split roughly 50/50. A large portion of the population is just sheep and my greatest hope is that they'll be herded up evenly into two camps so that more discerning people can decide the vote.

I can understand a basic opposition to propaganda because it’s been the ammunition of dictators since the birth of the information age, but it is not forceful propaganda alone that puts tyrants in power, but their control over media. As long as words are free to all, there’ll be a Coulter for Every Moore. These people will push their books no matter what we say and censoring them would be far more detrimental to our welfare than their most rabblerousing words.<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Well heck, I think I will shoot you today, because you will eventually die in some other different way anyway. You can't even begrudge me. Ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]I try not to begrudge anyone, negativity is a waste. There is, however, a sharp distinction between killing those who would otherwise live and fooling those who would otherwise think. Most people just don't have the incentive to think for themselves. Vowing allegiance to some group simplifies the whole process, allowing them to attain the only thing they truly value out of verbal discourse: winning arguments.

Others are concerned with what, upon reflection, most resembles the truth. But even they usually contradict each other, in part because they don’t have the time or energy to take discussions like these to their fruition (I, however, am generally too bored to shut up).<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Two paragraphs down you begrudge Bush for his own covering of the truth, but you defend Michael Moore's ability to lie about the liars to get the common public to see that people are lying. Circular logic ROCKS!

[/ QUOTE ]Uh, Michael isn't running anything. Well, he's running people out to buy his book and that's just fine, that’s his job. Bush is running my country, into the ground at that. Despite this, I didn't even begrudge Bush for a cover-up (though it certainly seemed like sarcasm) I found it merely to be an enlightening note. I don't begrudge Bush for what he's done to the country (nonsequitor: I love how "to" and "for" totally convey qualitative judgments in this instance). I don't find him to be malicious, he's just acting in his own best interest. I just happen to find a preponderance of evidence indicating that his best interest and mine differ...

Speaking of nonsequitors, the distinction between misinformation and lying:

Lying assumes what someone is saying is blatantly false. If it was blatantly false that George W. was at one time quoted by the NY Times, saying the Prince of Saudi Arabia and him had a “strong personal relationship”, Michael Moore would be crucified. The dis/misinfromation part of it is Moore indicating that George currently owes some allegiance to the country because of it. The former is an interesting tidbit of truth that should be taken into the greater context. The ladder is a shoddy conclusion that anyone with independent opinions can scrutinize and having considered it, dismiss (if you think it's a valid assessment based on a greater range of support, that's another matter).

So how do you protect people from lies? Do you prevent them from lying at all? You could in theory block out all messages except those that were indeed the truth, and that could, in theory, be glorious. The problem is that when only the truth is spoken, the truth becomes arbitrary, and then it only takes one person twisting it for the truth to become falsehood (happens in the church all the time). How about instead you allow people, even prominent ones, to lie, but allow the truth to be spoken as well?

To me at least, truth is meaningless if it is not found. If I read something that, under consideration, seems false, I have a better understanding of the truth because I now better understand what the truth is not. If you dismiss an entire cannon of arguments en masse, that’s scarcely different from accepting a prescribed range of beliefs and positions. Individual arguments, even among the same person, can differ widely in strength and verity. That’s why I enjoy Moore so much. It gives me an up close look at the radical left with which I can more precisely define my individual beliefs by throwing out what doesn’t make sense. I wish there were more entertaining books by those with which I differ on a more basic level, but what does it matter when I have as or more rational representatives of that side of the fence right here in the shoot? /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Now if only there were anyone still reading...

Razorback

10-12-2003, 09:53 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Go ahead, shield your eyes if you must

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading right there.

RB

hotlips_hooligan

10-12-2003, 10:11 PM

Well I have indeed read both of your posts... and I say BRAVO!

I find it refreshing to see someone who isn't so hung up in their own viewpoint to allow someone else’s opinions at least "entertain" them, if nothing else, for a few fleeting moments.

Thank you for the intelligent posts. Also, thank you for giving me something to think about while I sit here pondering my own beliefs. I applaud you and "dirty jack" (I love that nic) for standing up for what you believe and trying to enlighten the rest of us with information, some of us, might not have otherwise had knowledge of. I for one did not know anything about Michael Moore or his beliefs until this thread was started but I think I will go out and get the book so that I too can form my own educated opinion about it. Thanks again Dirty Jack and Dr3vil!! Again *Bravo*
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

Razorback

10-12-2003, 10:21 PM

I agree... bravo for preaching to the converted, again.

RB

hotlips_hooligan

10-12-2003, 10:25 PM

Ummm wow do I sense a bit of sarcasm in your post... hehehe I never said I was converted, I simply said I would like the opportunity to form my own educated opinion instead of piping in on a subject I know nothing about. I also just wanted to let them know that I enjoy the passion they put in their posts. Thank you!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Razorback

10-12-2003, 10:28 PM

I was saying that they were preaching to the converted... and anyone who praises two heads of cabbage for preaching leftist rhetoric is converted in my book.

RB

hotlips_hooligan

10-12-2003, 10:33 PM

Well my dear it doesn't change my opinion about you! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Do you understand that they could have been talking about hamburgers verses chicken nuggets and I would still enjoy the passion that they put into their posts?

Matthew

10-12-2003, 10:36 PM

I did not see a lot of intellect in their posts, I saw a lot of defensiveness and rhetoric. I am not sure if this is the case for those 2 or not, but it seems people like to argue shit without understanding the whole picture.

They get an idea in their heads that is usually not their own, and all of a sudden decide to pretend that they know the whole picture, thereby making themselves appear passionate by talking a bunch of nonsense.

I think it is funny, Razor and I stopped at exactly the same place in the posts, but just for the sake of at least checking out what they had to say, I read it, but it was boring, leftist bullshit.

Enough said! I hope that reality sets in soon for anyone who praises such crap!

hotlips_hooligan

10-12-2003, 10:42 PM

Wow I think I am a pretty nice person and I try not to cause any trouble, but I love how my stars drop when I simply state that I enjoyed someone’s posts. I never even said that I agreed. I actually said that I didn't know enough to agree or disagree. But thank you none the less. I will continue to enjoy this site. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Matthew

10-12-2003, 10:43 PM

Razor .....

Threadkiller

10-12-2003, 10:59 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
without understanding the whole picture.

[/ QUOTE ] I think it's funny that people figure the only reason someone disagrees with them is because they 'don't know the whole picture'. And how, if they have heard a particular line of reasoning before it becomes 'rhetoric'. And finally, I freaking laugh out loud when someone feels the need to post sarcastic comments when somebody says 'thanks for your point of view'.

Matthew

10-12-2003, 11:20 PM

I can take disagreements, it's what makes us all individuals.

Rhetoric means "speech or discourse that pretends to significance but lacks true meaning" (Webster), which is exactly what I detected on those posts.

Their style of speech is good and effective, but it went round and round and meant nothing. A lot of people buy into it, but I don't.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />

And finally, I freaking laugh out loud when someone feels the need to post sarcastic comments when somebody says 'thanks for your point of view'.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I laugh out loud when people are thanked for a rhetorical point of view.

Threadkiller

10-12-2003, 11:32 PM

Thanks for your point of view.
(damn I'm funny). /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Razorback

10-12-2003, 11:34 PM

I haven't even been at my keyboard for an hour... so if you want to accuse me of rating you poorly then enjoy being wrong. Of course, I can do it now.

Notice how you dropped to 2 stars? That was my doing. I can only vote once so the other was someone else.

RB

Matthew

10-12-2003, 11:45 PM

Well, if my last post was rhetorical, that would have been funny.

JIM

10-13-2003, 12:04 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I did not start the thread about bowling for colombine but i commented on it with MY opinions which i stand by as we all have a right to an opinion.

I like Michael Moore's work, evidently not so many people do on this forum! But because i posted a document from Moore's site does not make me anti-american, i merely found it amusing !

[/ QUOTE ]
Holy shit!
Are you a professional "spin doctor" for the house of commons or something?
I did not say you or anyone else has no right to an opinion.
Problem is, like Moore, you try to pass off opinion as fact.
I also did'nt say you are anti-American. But, I and others here have noticed that most of your posts pertaining to topics like these, are very American-centric. With you, usually painting a picture about U.S. firearms laws and firearms themselves, that is not true.
The B.S. coming from you is about that high right now
*JIM raises hand above head*
It seems that every time someone points out the holes in your arguement, you pull this passive-aggressive mumbo-jumbo like:
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
i think the USA is a great place and i have several close friends there!

[/ QUOTE ]
Stop trying to play both sides of the fence Dirty Sanchez/ Jack Sparrow.

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 01:12 AM

Passion is not a replacement for quality or intelligent discourse. Praising someone in spite of their inadequacies is inadvertently encouraging them to not try harder, not think more carefully, and not improve.

Many of us have tired of the numerous threads where Dirty/Sparrow has shown to be a patsy to propaganda. At this point, many of us challenged him to defend his points, which he is unable to do. Where DrEvil admittedly loves to play devil's advocate, and offers us something to think about and sometimes laugh about, Sparrow offers passion without substance. I am a firm believer in tough love. Coddling does not a great debater make.

Where I give him credit for his interest in American politics, he needs to learn to question instead of regurgitating the rhetoric of the propaganda ministers and calling it his own "opinion" on our culture.

By the way Sparrow, 29 years old is young. It is the perfect time to start voicing well-researched and informed opinions. You do have the passion and now is the opportunity to put some substance behind it.

Dr3vil

10-13-2003, 01:17 AM

A short post for a change:

How an earth can you claim to not be ignorant if you refuse to state the reasons behind your beliefs?

Razorback

10-13-2003, 01:23 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
A short post for a change

How an earth can you claim to not be ignorant if you refuse to state the reasons behind your beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading right there. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

RB

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 01:25 AM

DrEvil...are you feeling ok? Because that was really, really short. Maybe a new record. Did you jam your typing finger in basketball again?

Razorback

10-13-2003, 01:27 AM

Funny thing is that in one sentence he said exactly what he always says... that he is right because he over-explains his crappy opinions and that if everyone doesn't respond the same way he does then we must not be as passionate about our beliefs, or just wrong.

RB

DarthMaulRat

10-13-2003, 01:28 AM

What can I say? Sex sells.

ratm1966

10-13-2003, 01:32 AM

Okay, I lost track.....just who was it that was slamming Ann Coulter? Whoever it was, shame on you.

Dr3vil

10-13-2003, 01:33 AM

Zens, Razor and I aren't on speaking terms, can you tell him I'm not asking for over-explanations, I'm just interested in why our opinions differ?

And thanks for the concern, I do feel a bit light-headed after posting so few lines in one post, but I should be okay.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 01:53 AM

I thought we were not on listening terms.

RB

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 01:56 AM

Yes, I will tell him. I feel like I did when my mom and dad would fight and make me the go-between. Ahh, good times, good times.

Better get that hand looked at Dr. Evil. Your finger could fall off...

And by the way RATM, we know you love Ann for more than her brain /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

http://www.users.bigpond.com/jbrough/lakes/pa110003.jpg

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:02 AM

Hey RB...Dr. Evil said to tell you that he thinks Boba Fett sucks donkey dick, Maynard is nothing but a Jim Morrison rip-off, and he is going to kidnap ILovePapaSmurf from you and take her to Iceland and force her to watch leftist propaganda and pornography featuring former Solid Gold Dancers.
See, now it all becomes clear why my parents stopped letting me be the go-between.

ratm1966

10-13-2003, 02:10 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
And by the way RATM, we know you love Ann for more than her brain

[/ QUOTE ]
And what is wrong with that? Uh...nothing. She is a pretty good looking right winger. Oh yeah, I also liked her last book.

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:15 AM

I have enjoyed her books. I do think she falls pray to overdramatizing and it damages her excellent points, much as some other people we were discussing.

And yeah, she's hot. I'd do her. Um, er, I'd do research with her. Yeah, that's it. RESEARCH... /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Razorback

10-13-2003, 02:17 AM

That's ok, I don't value his opinion anyway. At least he is taking Smurf to a nice country.

RB

ILovePapaSmurf

10-13-2003, 02:19 AM

Aww that is [censored] up!

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:20 AM

Dammit RB, you are just like my mom. "No Susie, you can tell your father that if he does steal the car and move to Mexico with Charro from the Love Boat no one will miss him anyway." They never fell for those tricks either.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 02:21 AM

Don't worry baby, I didn't believe her. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

RB

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:22 AM

Well heavens I hope not. I am even less trustworthy than Michael Moore.

ILovePapaSmurf

10-13-2003, 02:24 AM

Oh, I'm sure RB. You are just waiting for me to get out of this country so you can flirt with your poop shoot girls, which I am surrounded by porn..Wait..maybe that doesn't sound too bad...

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:28 AM

Hey, it's not like the fictionalized world I made you was a bad thing. Well, granted, I don't know if DrEvil is Timberlake hot, but if he isn't you can toss him like timber into the lake and get yourself a new guy.

* Note: I do not find Timberlake hot, but I am using the reference for Smurf benefit.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 02:28 AM

I love porn! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

RB

ILovePapaSmurf

10-13-2003, 02:30 AM

I'm sure you do. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

And zens, if he was timberlake hot, that would be ok, but I perfer more of a Ewan type of guy, so lets cross our finger and hope that he is a Ewan look-a-like..*oh lord please let it be*

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:32 AM

Well since it is my world I am creating, we will just give you Ewan. And a big house made of gingerbread. And a day spa next door. Yeah, that too.

As for RB and his "I Love Porn" comment...Ladies and Gentleman, we have heard the "NO SHIT!" statement of the month!

Razorback

10-13-2003, 02:34 AM

No, you don't understand. I really love porn.

RB

ratm1966

10-13-2003, 02:39 AM

Who doesn't? I know Zens does. She mentioned it the other day. She was talking about her collection of Traci Lords' early work.

ILovePapaSmurf

10-13-2003, 02:39 AM

Oh, can I have a white picket fence and dog named 'sparky' too zens!? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

And RB, I think we all can understand that since your avatar is holing a 'light saber' in its hand. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:43 AM

Well, given that Ginger Lynn is from the town I currently live in I suppose my collection of her work is vaster than Traci. For historical purposes of course. It is important to support your local artists.

Oh, who am I kidding. Porn is there for a purpose, and a excellent one at that. Viva la Vivid!

Matt1

10-13-2003, 02:45 AM

You people and all your filthy degenerate porn talk disgust me! It's getting so a decent man can't even go out his own door, without being bombarded by some kind of sick perversion! It really infuriates me!

Just ask my leather-slave. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

ratm1966

10-13-2003, 02:47 AM

Let me guess, you and you guy pal like to do the Lemiwinks thingy?

Matt1

10-13-2003, 02:57 AM

For some reason I imagine you saying that with a stereo-typical Italian accent. Weird.

As for your comment itself, do you honestly believe I would demean myself by stickng a gerbil up my anus? What kind of person do you think I am? I have a little thing called self-respect! Sheesh!

Now if you will please excuse me, I have a golden shower to attend! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 01:22 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I did not say you or anyone else has no right to an opinion.
Problem is, like Moore, you try to pass off opinion as fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested where i have exactly claimed to "STATE FACTS" to my knowledge i have made my opinion known.

For example i believe that you made a thread to mock the death of thousands of French people in the droughts, and you then pass it off as "dark humour" i call it sick. What ALI G said about the septemer 11 attacks and any humour regarding this is deplorable but i am not responsible for his or anyone elses opinion. Now that is not a fact it is MY opinion.

With regards to firemarms i simply believe that unless you are in the military or the police force or a job that requires a firearm you should not have access to them.

Before you start your internal dialogue about your right to bear arms, if no one had guns no-one would need protecting from them. I strongly disagree with hunting and therefore i do not feel that firearms should be available to hunters !! Now jim i am not stating any facts here, these are my opinions if you don't like them - i don't particularly care

Now with regards to the USA as i said i think its a great country with some great people - but as i said in my last post it has its problems as do several countries in the world for example both the USA and England decided to wade into Iraq to find some rare creatures reported extinct "Weapons of Mass Destruction" unfortunately their search has been pretty much fruitless again these are my opinions based on the medias coverage of the war, it doesn't make them fact but they are my opinions based on what we are told.

Presumably when you say moore is lying you aren't actually proving that yourself?? but relying on other peoples writings or publishings regarding his work ?? or are you Columbo ??

Hey if you want to discuss the UK's problems i have no problem with that and if you don't care for our politics or some of our ways it dosen't bother me in the slightest.

Matthew

10-13-2003, 01:56 PM

Again, I say rhetoric to that post.

At this point

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />

With regards to firemarms i simply believe that unless you are in the military or the police force or a job that requires a firearm you should not have access to them.

Before you start your internal dialogue about your right to bear arms, if no one had guns no-one would need protecting from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just about lost it. These are the EXACT reasons why constitutionally we have the right to bear arms, so we can defend ourself it the Militia becomes a threat, or for self defense.

If you ban arms, people who don't care about the law will still be able to acquire them.

Say you have a guy with an m-16 entering your house, killing everone in sight, and you defend yourself with what, a broomstick? Perhaps some rotton fruit?

You are a jackass if you try to say "That's what the police is for " or "That will never happen to me."

Read as to why the right to bear arms is in the constitution.

As far as hunting, that is fine that you don't agree with it, that is your choice. BUT just like you leftists always say "Don't put your beliefs on me."

I enjoy killing my dinner. You enjoy buying yours.

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:09 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
if no one had guns no-one would need protecting from them.

[/ QUOTE ] If we rid citizens of guns they will find other ways to kill each other. I repeat...OBJECTS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

In fact, take away guns and they will probably use knives. Maybe we should ban knives and scissors because they can be used as weapons. Hell! Let's just ban cooking foods that require being cut up because they require the use of a deadly tool. Taco Bell sporks for the world!

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 02:11 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Say you have a guy with an m-16 entering your house, killing everone in sight, and you defend yourself with what, a broomstick? Perhaps some rotton fruit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if there are no guns to get, how would he have the M16? further more if the M16 had never been made he definately wouldn't have one?

Look, i know ,i know this is not a pratical solution as there are far too many weapons in circulation for this utopian view of a peaceful world its just how i'd like it to be.

Now, i am not pushin nothin on you just telling my story !!

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:19 PM

The problem is that the only people that will have guns are the criminals who will obtain them illegally, regardless of legislation.

I think I have found the practical solution. VIVA LA SPORKS! Every citizen will get a holster and 22 beige sporks with which they can defend themselves and munch on burritos all at the same time.

http://ian.ice.org/studies/3d/7sporks.jpg

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 02:20 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
If we rid citizens of guns they will find other ways to kill each other. I repeat...OBJECTS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what, i have heard that shit so many times, and to a certain extent i agree.

But should we be manufacturing more and more weapons designed to do exactly that? Is it just possible that without guns the murders all over the world would drop, as to me MURDER with a gun is a pretty cowardly act not having to get at all close or in danger yourself to commit the act?

Yes i'm sure there'd be warfare fought with forks and even sharpened spoons !!

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 02:31 PM

In reality fear is one of the only thing that establishes social control.

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 02:50 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
In reality fear is one of the only thing that establishes social control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting words those, are they yours or is that a quote? What societies is that rule based on and are they successful?

The type of fear that make people all follow the same rules? Thats fair enough to me, we should all be treated the same regardless

However fear that encourages no freedom of speech or expression?, the right to question your government or change it should you see fit?

There's a name for that you know, and its not the sort of society i want to live in ??

Dr3vil

10-13-2003, 03:15 PM

Woah, woah, woah, get back to the part where I'm wisking smurf off away to get smurphy at a smurfy radical leftist political rally!

http://www.satt.org/grafiken2/smurf-jump.gif
"VIVA LA REVOLUTION!".

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 03:19 PM

Did you know that smurfs have no reproductive organs ? (according to Donnie Darko so may not be a fact Jim)

lololol funny stuff doc

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 03:30 PM

Well, it is my own words, but it is an often-quoted idea.

Fear is used everywhere to control people. You do live in a society that uses fear as control. So do I. It is one of the only things that is universally understood by the masses; rich and poor, educated and uneducated.

* Religion was used throughout time to implement social control of the masses. If you study religions, they are mostly based on good behavior/reward/good afterlife system. If you are a good person and follow the rules of the religion you will attain some spiritual reward in death; maybe heaven, maybe rebirth as a better being. What do people fear? That which they do not understand. What is the one big unanswered question for mankind? What happens to us when we die. So religion uses the fear of eternal damnation or nothingness to control us into following rules of being a good person.

* Law is nothing more than creating a punishment that people fear to stop them from doing things that disrupt the order of that particular society. Why do I not drive 90 miles an hour on a wide-open freeway? Because I am afraid of a large speeding ticket. Why would I drive 90 mph on the Autobahn? Because I am not afraid of getting a ticket.

I am not saying this is a nice fact about life, but it is the way the world has worked for 1,000 of years and continues to. It is unfortunately why you read so many statistics that show heavily armed states and populations have lower crime rates. People are afraid to be shot so they police themselves more. It's not a good thing, but reality rarely presents a pretty answer.

Matthew

10-13-2003, 03:44 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />

Well, if there are no guns to get, how would he have the M16? further more if the M16 had never been made he definately wouldn't have one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Marijuana and Cocaine are illegal, Prostitution is illegal, yet those things are easily obtained.

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:01 PM

And again if they are not produced in the first place they are LESS available.

Prostitution - is indirectly manufactured, by poverty, i suspect very few people's true vocation is prostitution. For what its worth Porn stars are paid to fornicate and thats not illegal !! Well managed prostitution appears to work well in the Netherlands and in parts of Austrailia and has led to a reduction in sex crimes according to media reports !!

Marajuana - Also decriminalised in several parts of the world and downgraded in the drug class in the UK - shouldn't be illegal in the first place drinkin, smokin isn't - because of course cigarette's don't kill people - people kill people?

And Coke - needs to be manufactured tooo !!!!!

WARNING MAY NOT CONTAIN FACTS JUST HUMBLE OPINIONS

Razorback

10-13-2003, 04:08 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
And again if they are not produced in the first place they are LESS available.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are so naive... how do we stop guns from being produced outside of the US? Some of the best firearms in the world are made outside of the US.

RB

Matthew

10-13-2003, 04:12 PM

I am tollerant of a lot of things, stupidity is NOT one of them however.

Ignorance, I can handle because they simply do not know.

Stupiditity on the otherhand, I can not stand. ESPECIALLY when someone pretends to know ,pretends to make sense of, or pretends to perceive a situation properly.

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:13 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
You are so naive... how do we stop guns from being produced outside of the US? Some of the best firearms in the world are made outside of the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guns are a Global problem not limited to the USA, and you call me naive !!

We do have a United Nations, no need for the seige mentality RB?

Matthew

10-13-2003, 04:14 PM

The United Nations is the most corrupt organazation in the world. Jack, go away and come back when you can intellectually defend yourself, and don't come back until you are able to make any sense.

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:18 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I am tollerant of a lot of things, stupidity is NOT one of them however.

Ignorance, I can handle because they simply do not know.

Stupiditity on the otherhand, I can not stand. ESPECIALLY when someone pretends to know ,pretends to make sense of, or pretends to perceive a situation properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

erm ...When I hear the words Animal and Rights in the same sentance, I need to kill 10 of something

and i'm stupid ? you need to kill 10 of something? is that to eat as you said you like to kill your food?

note: sentence** my learned friend

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:21 PM

As people are so fond of telling that me and my conspiratuer
Michael Moore do not state facts hahaha.

just where does this fact stem from bud?

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
The United Nations is the most corrupt organazation in the world

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a gift

Matt1

10-13-2003, 04:21 PM

Don't just say Jack is stupid. Don't just say the U.N. is corrupt. You're not making any points. Just saying things. Back up what you say. Explain what you say. Otherwise, there's really not much of a difference between you and Jack is there?

Matthew

10-13-2003, 04:27 PM

I have already made several points about his whole gun control stance, and yet his rebuttals are just well, strange to say the least.

As far as UN Corruption, read this (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-253.html)

Razorback

10-13-2003, 04:29 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Guns are a Global problem not limited to the USA, and you call me naive !!

We do have a United Nations, no need for the seige mentality RB?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I hate about forum conversations... even people who are totally out-of-their-mind-crazy get to feel as if they are still in the fight. In the real world I would have killed you by now. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

RB

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 04:32 PM

With a spork? If you need to eviscerate him with some sporks I have my hip holster ready and prepared.

How many times can one man be beaten before he just gives in? The definition of insanity is going the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Matthew

10-13-2003, 04:36 PM

How about we glaze him with honey and throw him in a cage with Rosanne and Oprah?

Razorback

10-13-2003, 04:38 PM

I think I could kill him with a Matrix spoon.

RB

karmattack

10-13-2003, 04:43 PM

I am not presently (spiritual reasons), but I was once a registered gun owner. I say this to preface the quote I'm about to post. I have sympathy for people who feel the need to defend themselves with guns or those who hunt or just collect responsibly. But Bill Hicks said this about crime rates in America and I think it's worth a think or two.

"Yeah, ok. There is NO correlation between owning a gun and shooting someone and NOT owning a gun and NOT shooting someone."

The people doing the shooting are definitely the problem, but if you get rid of the violent problems and tendencies people have, aren't you in effect getting rid of 95% of the reason anybody would own a gun in the first place?

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:44 PM

Well its a very good article actually, well written with some excellent opinions! However:

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
There is abundant anecdotal evidence of all three being committed within the UN system.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that anecdotal evidence would hold up in court?

I appreciate what you are saying, but we all rely on the media's reporting of these stories so you in fact have produced no EVIDENCE to support the fact that the UN is the most corrupt organisation in the world?

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 04:46 PM

YEAH! [Stands up in chair an claps out loud for Karma]

Hence my argument in the previous thread about this. If you help eliminate the causes of agression, and the reason that person fears enough to need a gun, you help eliminate the reasons a person would think to pick up a gun in the first place.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 04:48 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
The people doing the shooting are definitely the problem, but if you get rid of the violent problems and tendencies people have, aren't you in effect getting rid of 95% of the reason anybody would own a gun in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a perfect world... we will probably never achieve more than 5% towards perfection.

Of course, that doesn't explain why people in countries with extremely low rates of violence (Canada, Iceland), own tons of firearms. So Americans should be the only gun-loving nation to get rid of them? Never. I don't care how hard the anti-gun lobby tries, the dents they have made in 40 years have done very little to slow down the sportscar of gun-rights.

RB

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:49 PM

Yes because good debating does resort to talk of glazing people with honey or killing them with spork?

Maybe i will quit on this thread because when sound debate becomes petty and without any substance its pretty mundane.

So if there are no objections let's close this one for the archives?

Razorback

10-13-2003, 04:50 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Maybe i will quit on this thread because when sound debate becomes petty and without any substance its pretty mundane.

So if there are no objections let's close this one for the archives?

[/ QUOTE ]

We accept your surrender. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

RB

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:53 PM

It is not a surrender i am happy to continue for as long as you like if you want to talk about the issues at hand?

However, honey roasting and spork fights are not really what i had in mind when i started this thread !

Matthew

10-13-2003, 04:55 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />

The people doing the shooting are definitely the problem, but if you get rid of the violent problems and tendencies people have, aren't you in effect getting rid of 95% of the reason anybody would own a gun in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree Karma, there are still hunters, sportsman, collectors etc.

The percentage of people that own guns compared to those that commit violent crimes is quite small!

Also, why would you have sympathy with people who hunt or collectors or anyone who owns a gun? That is strange!

It's what people like to do, they have fun! Having sympothy on someone who "likes to hunt" or "feels the need to defend themselves with guns" is as ludicrous as me feeling sympothy for the child who collects pennies, or having sympothy for those who defend themselves with a home security system.

Matthew

10-13-2003, 04:57 PM

Jack Jack Jack ... Who said anything about roasting?

Rosanne and Oprah can get pretty hungry, and pretty horny if locked in a cage for a few days!

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 04:58 PM

Hunting - it takes me back ? herds and herds of buffalo ?

Damn, now where did they go?

Razorback

10-13-2003, 04:59 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
It is not a surrender i am happy to continue for as long as you like if you want to talk about the issues at hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good, because I just started the grill up. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

RB

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 05:00 PM

Well i do enjoy a roast!! preferably turkey with all the trimmings!

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 05:01 PM

Nice to have your head replace the old ones on my mantle.

The spork part was a joke, and you know that. I noticed you didn't even bother to debate anything I said on a intellectual level. It must be hard to feel like you were just part of a intellectual gang-bang that you begged for.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 05:01 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Hunting - it takes me back ? herds and herds of buffalo ?

[/ QUOTE ]

And... ?

RB

Matthew

10-13-2003, 05:02 PM

Zens, you are too funny. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 05:05 PM

Thank you. I am glad I didn't give him the courtesy of a reach-around afterwards.

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 05:07 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I noticed you didn't even bother to debate anything I said on a intellectual level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did it not occur to you that i may have agreed with some of it?

Matthew

10-13-2003, 05:08 PM

No, because that would not be the Jack that we all know.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 05:10 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Did it not occur to you that i may have agreed with some of it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be totally out of character. You can't expect people to imagine you doing something you have never done before.

RB

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 05:10 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
No, because that would not be the Jack that we all know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe this are you saying that i am argumentative ? lol

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 05:11 PM

Well apparently not because your fake surrender was a reply to me and my sporkisms.

By the way, I refuse to abandon my sporks. I repeat VIVA LA SPORK!

Matthew

10-13-2003, 05:13 PM

Jack, stop being so defensive now.

I was referring to the way you are quick to debate, and how you are quick to agree.

Saying nothing (from what I know of you here) usually means defeat.

That's all I meant, nothing more.

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 05:15 PM

I WILL NEVER AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stick that in your spork and well? spork it!!

lol only kiddin

i am hungry now i need a giant spork to hunt with?

Jack_Sparrow

10-13-2003, 05:18 PM

I am not defeated as you have failed to change my views and now that the thread has decayed into a Sporkfest i thought i'd have some light entertainment too - it's tiring work being a pain in the ass!

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 05:18 PM

There you go!
http://mtc.engr.mun.ca/spork.jpg

Razorback

10-13-2003, 05:18 PM

Stick a spork in him...

RB

Dr3vil

10-13-2003, 05:26 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
This is what I hate about forum conversations... even people who are totally out-of-their-mind-crazy get to feel as if they are still in the fight. In the real world I would have killed you by now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, the truth is irrelevant, what matters is winning.

I said it before and I'll say it again: people hate to think, but they sure love to argue.

Razorback

10-13-2003, 05:27 PM

What did you say? I HATE YOU! YOU SUCK!

RB

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 05:27 PM

As the old high school cheerleaders liked to remind us...

"I said it before, I'll say it again. Go, Fight, Win!"

Dr3vil

10-13-2003, 05:29 PM

I love you too RB, /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Zens_7s

10-13-2003, 05:31 PM

Hey, you replied to me and then you tell RB that you love him? No fuckin' fair. I am soooo gonna play girl now and pout that one out.

Dr3vil

10-13-2003, 05:47 PM

Aww baby, you know I still love you too... *offers comforting arm and is reciprocated with a knee to the groin, collapses into fetal position*

Bang, bang, my baby shot me down...

JIM

10-13-2003, 06:51 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
For example i believe that you made a thread to mock the death of thousands of French people in the droughts, and you then pass it off as "dark humour" i call it sick. What ALI G said about the septemer 11 attacks and any humour regarding this is deplorable but i am not responsible for his or anyone elses opinion. Now that is not a fact it is MY opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, boo-f u c k i n -hoo. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
Don't try to smear me Dirty Jack, you fake-ass bleeding heart..
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
With regards to firemarms i simply believe that unless you are in the military or the police force or a job that requires a firearm you should not have access to them.

Before you start your internal dialogue about your right to bear arms, if no one had guns no-one would need protecting from them. I strongly disagree with hunting and therefore i do not feel that firearms should be available to hunters !! Now jim i am not stating any facts here, these are my opinions if you don't like them - i don't particularly care

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... fact is, if you really believe that, you are mindless cattle to be herded and sent to slaughter.
You are like the ostrich that buries it head in the sand thinking everything is fine and dandy and that the world is peachy-keen.
You're beyond naive.
People like you made it easy for the nazis.
People like you made it easy for Pol Pot.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Presumably when you say moore is lying you aren't actually proving that yourself?? but relying on other peoples writings or publishings regarding his work ?? or are you Columbo ??

[/ QUOTE ]
It has been proven with hard fact he is wrong and you are wrong on these matters as well. Many have tried to point that out to you, but you don't want to do the research on firearms.
In reguards to your "debating skills".
You are the retarded prize fighter that does'nt know when to stay down for the count.